https://insidehmcts.blog.gov.uk/applying-for-probate-top-tips-tools-and-what-to-expect-podcast-transcript/
Applying for Probate: Top Tips, Tools and What to Expect - podcast transcript
Aaron Wilson:
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside HMCTS with me Aaron Wilson. In today's episode, we're looking at a service that will likely touch everyone at some point in their lives, and that's probate. Losing someone you care about is always a difficult time, and our team here at HMCTS will do everything possible to support users through the process of applying for probate, when that time comes.
Now I'm delighted to say that I'm joined by two experts in that field today, and that is Arjan and Nigel, both have a ton of experience when it comes to this process. Welcome to you both and thank you for coming on to the podcast. If I can start with you, Arjan, would you mind introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about what you do here?
Arjan Sehjal:
Absolutely. My name is Arjan, and for the past two years I was working as a support officer in probate, so I was very much on the ground level. I was the person answering the phone, talking to customers who had queries about their applications and was a grant to probate examiner myself. So, we'd look at these cases, examine them, stop them if required and most importantly, with that outcome that we were wanting, for issuing grants of probate when all was ready to do so.
Since October of last year, so for the past just over four months, I've actually been promoted to a team leader. So, I'm now I'm taking on a bit more of a managerial role, as a temporary sort of a paradigm and managing a team who are now in my shoes. So, I'm very much enjoying that sort of a sort of extended duty moment.
Aaron Wilson:
Lovely. Thank you. Welcome to the podcast. And, Nigel, I'll come to you now. Would you mind doing a short introduction of yourself and your role here at HMCTS.
Nigel Wilson:
Yeah, sure. My name is Nigel. I've been a HMCTS for five years now. My role is a support officer. I actually answer the phone, take calls, issue grants, and also deal with technical applications that needs issuing.
I also work along in coaching, helping to develop staff as well. I'm also here to actually make sure that all the grants are issued, correctly and on time as well.
Aaron Wilson:
Lovely. Thank you. I mean, I said this obviously when we were chatting before, and I'm a bit of a novice to the private system, so please forgive me if I misspeak or ask a question that's probably quite obvious, but Arjan if I can come to you first, could you talk us through the process for applying for probate?
Is it quite an easy process to follow?
Arjan Sehjal:
Well, people who apply for probate are people who are suffering from a bereavement or, quite often, people who have lost someone they know. And if they're making an application for probate, then they are either the executor of a will so they were appointed in that role to be the person who would manage and help to manage an estate and administer it once that person passed away, or if that person did leave a will then they are very usually what we call the administrator. So, they're the first person who would be in line to inherit that estate. So already when you're applying for probate, you know you're already grappling with the loss.
Is it an easy process? Certainly it can be and it very largely depends on the circumstances in which that person passed away. So, what sort of state they left their estate in, you know, whether it was or fairly, you know, was it all kind of left in disparate parts all over the place, or did they kind of, you know, organise and have the plans in place and how valid their will might be, and we talk about validity of a will in terms of how it's executed.
So there are a couple of different facets that will determine how easy your journey will be once you apply for probate, but certainly on a, on an official basis and in terms of once you actually get your boots on the ground and start the application, it very much can be a simple process. It's logistically, it's just a matter of jumping onto the portal if you're applying online and there's a five stage process, so you know, you're running through each individual section, completing each one before you get to the last one.
Your last section is payment and once you've paid for grants of probate your case is under way and it's in our hands to examine.
Aaron Wilson:
And if I'm, touch wood I don’t have to do this for a while, but, if I'm going through the probate service. What is the procedure? So, if I'm on the internet, I'm searching up probate, what happens then after I find the page?
Arjan Sehjal:
So you are, an executor of a will. You know that you have to make an application for probate that's already been, you know, you've spoken to the people who are the asset holders, the bank, etc. and they've said to you, we won't release these amount of funds, we won't let you administer this estate until you show us a grant of probate.
Now, you know, you need a grant, a probate. So you, as you said, you jump onto an internet browser like Google. You’ve typed in, ‘apply for probate’ and you're away and the very first page is usually what you want on the on the GOV website. And there's a green box that says ‘start now’. Once you click start now, it will ask you a few preliminary questions just to make sure you've got everything you need to apply, such as a death certificate, things like that you know the basic information, they have to spell the person's name and have all the dates and have registered their death, etc.
Once you've got all that, you make an account on the GOV website so you know you'll need to log in and you'll have an ongoing application that you'll make, and then that you start that five stage process that I talk about.
So, you know, section one being details about yourself, so we know we would need your name, your address, etc. Section two would be details about the person who's passed away, the deceased, and then information about their estate. We ask if you want any additional copies which informs payment. And the very last thing you have to do if you're applying online is payment.
Once you've paid for your application for probate, automatically your application is underway. You get a 16 digit case reference number, so you know, you have a valid ongoing case and you're prompted with an email to then post that will because we do need the original will, even if you apply for probate, you need to do some posting.
You'll given a prompt to post it the original will and any other supporting documents that might be required. And then, even though we've got your case at that point, once you’ve paid, we can't actually do anything with the case until you've sent your wills. So, it is a bit of a two-step process, you do the online stuff and then you post any documents that you need after you, you know, you've done the online stuff.
And then once we've got the documents you can then sort of sit back, the ball is in our court. We will then process your application with the documents you've given us.
And the very last thing I'll say is it does need to be done in that order. People who post us things without having done the online stuff first, those things could go awry because we don't have a case in place to allocate those documents to.
So as long as you're doing things in the systematic order that, you know, we ask for them in and you should be okay.
Aaron Wilson:
Lovely. Thank you. And, Nigel, am I right in thinking that you can still apply for probate using a paper form? What's the process for that?
Nigel Wilson:
In terms of applying for, for probate there's two processes that you can actually do. You can actually apply online and you can actually apply by completing a paper form, if there's a will, the forms PA1P, if there's no will, the forms PA1A. If you do apply by actually, applying by actually completing a form, obviously you need to post a form to us the address is actually, on the form.
The forms pretty basic. Forms can ask for your details. And it's going to actually ask for the deceased details as well. It's going to ask for your name, your address, if you've got, for example, you might have an email address as well. You can just fill out the form basically and send it off to us. Once we get the form we can process your application as well.
Aaron Wilson:
And this might be a bit of a stupid question, but where would I find the form if I was looking for a paper form?
Nigel Wilson:
Okay, yeah, the form is actually available on our website, GOV.UK if you just search probate in the search bar, you can actually download and print the form.
We've actually got the facilities as well to actually post the format to you directly as well. You can actually telephone us and we could post the form out.
We've also got webchat facilities as well. You can pop onto our webchat, just request that you need, the form. I would say once you actually request the form, make sure that you actually request the appropriate form. If there's a will, the form that we need is PA1P. If there's no will that means that the person died in intestate. We need the probate form PA1A.
I'd encourage, applicants to apply digitally. Digitally, it's a more effective way, of applying for probate and, on our website once you apply digitally, you will be signposted, to the various steps, that's needed. It's quicker and it's more efficient way of applying for probate as well, yeah.
Aaron Wilson:
I'm going to open the floor up to you both for this one, obviously you’ve both got a lot of experience in this area and I think hearing from you guys is probably the best thing for listeners. But obviously, there are some common mistakes that people make when applying for probate. What can they do to avoid this? What are your top tips when applying?
Nigel Wilson:
One of the major mistakes, when applying for probate, is not sending the original will, when there's a will, or if there's a will, because we do need the original will. There’s quite a few occasions where the solicitors actually keep the will. Obviously, there's a lot of people that keep, they give the solicitor the will just for safekeeping.
Now, when the executor in the will goes to the solicitor, the solicitor tend to give them a copy of the will. So I'd say always prompt the solicitor that you need the original will and not the copy. There are occasions actually where the where the will can be lost. For example, the will could have been lost by the executor. So I'd say as well, if the will’s lost, you are going to make an application for probate, where there's a will you'd need to submit, what we call a lost will questionnaire probate form PA13. Once we get the probate form PA13, you need to send it with your probate form PA1P and just confirm that the will has been lost.
Obviously, as Arjan was saying as well, there are a lot of, applications that we've actually come across with IHT figures that’s not been declared. The best thing to actually do is check with HMRC, just to make sure if there's any inheritance tax that needs paying. You know, once you've checked with HMRC, they'll actually confirm, if you need to, to submit any inheritance tax form or you can actually just go straight online, on our website, apply for probate, and declare the IHT figures that you will get from HMRC.
Now, the figures with HMRC, you'll get these figures by actually completing or using they call it an IHT tool checker and that's available at HMRC’s website. The figures should be actually declared by using that checker. It's IHT calculator and the figures that they'll actually get they can actually forward the figures and submit it on the probate application.
Those are the major things. And when it comes to them, applying for probate things that's missing, for example, if the executor if they, you know, in bereavement is a very emotional time as well. The, the executor can actually appoint someone to act as their attorney as well. Again, we would need, probate form PA11. That's a power of attorney form. If you could send that form as well, along with the, probate form PA1P, if there's a will, we’ll marry the two forms together.
Arjan Sehjal:
And if I could chime in as well. It actually, to follow on from what Nigel was saying, it's always about giving us as much information as you might think that we need, and sometimes more. So, an example I think of is executors being missing from the application. And I've, I’ve given the example before when there are multiple people named as executors in a will it's very often the case where, someone is applying for probate, someone who's passed away and someone else who is named as an executor has also died. And because you're doing probate and you're thinking, it's all about people who aren't with us anymore and you don't think to tell us the day that the reason they aren't applying is because they’ve passed away.
So very often, if we come across a case where, an executor is not accounted for in an application, no one's told us why they're not on the application, we would have to stop and ask “where is this executor?” Well, it's a very simple matter of letting us know every single executor why they aren't applying if they are indeed appointed in the will.
So if you are going to send in an application for probate on the off chance that you don't need it for any kind of estate purposes, you just need it as a court document then we need to know that that's the reason and that's why there are no figures on the estate. I go back to my point about IHT, as I say, it's always helpful if you get your ducks in a row on the inheritance tax side of things first. If you know you have to fill out a tax form, do that in the immediate because if there's tax to pay, you will be given, by HMRC, something called a unique probate code in a letter.
And if you have that unique probate code letter, it's just a simple matter of giving us the code in your application. And then we don't ask any questions about IHT because we already know: “oh, they've done their homework, they've gone to HMRC, they've got their letter” and there's nothing more for us to ask. So yeah, that's just a bit more of a point of what Nigel was saying there.
Aaron Wilson:
Could you just explain, I suppose, taking this back to basics, could you explain the executors and how they interact and how many can you have, in a will? And then when it comes to actually applying for probably by how many people can apply?
Nigel Wilson:
Right. In terms of the executors, you can have as many executors as you want in the will. It's not a problem. However, only four executors are actually allowed to apply for probate. The executors that’ve applied for probate their names will also be printed on the grant as well.
Aaron Wilson:
And for those, I mean, I think this is probably for people listening to this who aren't in probate or for those going through this, and there's a lot of technical legal terms in there, what is an executor, just to take this completely back to basics?
Arjan Sehjal:
So the role of an executor is someone who is appointed to administer the estate. So it is their job to represent the wishes of the intestate to the deceased person, as they're going ahead and making sure that the estate is divvied up and dispensed with accordingly with the wishes and the will.
Nigel Wilson:
If an executor decides that day, you know, at this point they're not ready to apply for a grant of probate. They can have what we call power reserved, so they can reserve power to act at a later date. Yeah, but as Arjan was saying, and the court must be given, for each executors, some executor might decide to renounce some might need to act, but once they renounce that mean, they then leave the application to the balance of the executors, then to apply for a grant of probate. If they have power reserved they can actually apply at a later date. But at this point, because of having power reserved that would allow the other executors to act on their behalf as well.
The beneficiaries that are named in the will now, at this point, because there is executors, they couldn't really apply at this point. They'd have to leave it to the executors named in the will, to apply if, for example, the executors named in the will, if they're now deceased, all of them, then the beneficiaries then could actually, apply for a grant of probate.
They wouldn't be able to apply, online. They'd have to complete again probate form PA1P and actually send in the original will as well. On the form as well, we would actually ask why, for example, isn't say Joe Bloggs about named on the application. They'd have to give an account on the form that Joe Bloggs, for example, is now is either renounced or is now deceased.
Sorry for using the pun Joe Bloggs.
Aaron Wilson:
I'm sure Joe Bloggs won’t mind!
Arjan I just want to come back to something you said before, sort of around the documents you need to send when applying for probate. What should people do if they don't have those documents? Can they still can they apply for probate, or is that is that sort of a stopping blocker to the system?
Arjan Sehjal:
Well, it very much depends on what the documents are, so there are certain things where if we require them, we require them and we will insist on them. But the most standard applications for a grant of probate and, you know, nowadays even sending us a death certificate, if all of the details are already on, you know, registered with the issued death certificates even a death certificate isn't really required. You know, unless it's a foreign death certificate, for example. So there are some cases where we just need the will and that's all. But then there are going to be circumstances where and this is where people's individual circumstances do mean a whole lot. Let's say, you know, you're an executor alongside somebody else, but that other person doesn't want to apply for a probate.
You know, you're the only person who wants to kind of take part in the application to be named on the ground. So, very often that person will renounce probate. Basically saying, “I want to kind of surrender my responsibility to be an executor. It's not something I've feel able to do, etc.” so, they have to then offer a renunciation for that, which is an official sort of document which has to be signed by that person, signed by a witness and we do need that original renunciation form with the wet signatures of the renouncing executor and the witness. So, but certainly if that's something that you didn't know at the time and you just send us the will, by itself, we would send you an email asking for, “we know there's this executor, you said they want to renounce, can we have a renunciation form?”
And we'd give you the name of the form that you need there, so if it's the PA15, there's a will, and we'd instruct you where to send it. You know, we'd ask you to post it to us, and we would advise you that we do need the original as well. So if you would send us a copy again, we'd have to ask the original.
So it does largely depend. You know, there used to be the case when people passed away prior to 2021. We would need a tax form of some kind. So even if there might be no inheritance tax to pay on the estate because it was all accepted, it was all going to a spouse or it fell under the exemption, we would still need a tax form of some kind. It was called the IHT205 form.
Since 2022 with a lot of these cases where there is no tax to pay the estate is accepted if even a taxable visit required, you simply, you give us the figures in your application for the estate value.
We might do a couple checks on our end as we were examining the case, and if we see all is hunky dory, we will go ahead and issue that grant without needing to see a tax form, without any involvement from HMRC.
Aaron Wilson:
There's obviously been a huge amount of work within probate to sort of get tight waiting times down for applications to come back. I think obviously you mentioned earlier about an average application taking 12 weeks. Can it be quicker than this? What's the sort of the current state of play?
Nigel Wilson:
If you look at our data now, most applications, most grants have been issued within, you know, within a five week I'm frame as well. You know, we've published recent data which shows, the probate organization, we've gone through an overhaul really, there's been a lot of changes and it's efficient now. You know, looking about five weeks for the average time for grant of probate to be granted.
We do state, 12 weeks, just in case we need additional information. But, you know, as the data can show now, it's five weeks. That's the average time that we're looking at the moment as well yeah.
Arjan Sehjal:
We always say, the more times we have to stop a case to ask for information. So in essence, the more erroneous an application is when it's first made, the longer it will take for the grant to be issued, because the more work we have to do on it. And the cases that we love getting are the ones where, all the information has been given upfront and everything has been done in a thorough manner.
It's those sorts of cases we examine once everything's, as I say, hunky dory and we can issue the grant. Once granted, once your application has been approved, you'll receive an automatic, generated email informing you of that, telling you the process is now finished and you're granted probate is on its way to you, in the post, and you get the court sealed documents delivered to in the post.
Aaron Wilson:
And if people want to keep track of their application, how can they do that online?
Arjan Sehjal:
Well, they can check using the, the application portal so they can check for when the state over case has changed. So that means that an examiner has gone in and done something to it. And of course, as well, when we need to send requests for information, that will be emailed directly to the applicant. So that's that kind of first-hand insight into what's going on with the cases is what we kind of tell them directly.
Aaron Wilson:
Well I mean, this would be obviously be a great thing if everyone had access to you like I've got today to ask you all these questions. But if people do have questions about their application, what should they do and where should they go to Nigel?
Nigel Wilson:
If they've got questions regarding their application, they can actually send us an email in actually, just requesting additional details. We've got a webchat facility going as well. They can actually join our webchat facility. Ask us any question and we'll actually relay what's needed.
Now, sometimes, we might need additional information. We've introduced recently a facility that we call Citizens’ Hub where they can actually log on through their application. And they can provide the necessary information.
Sometimes we need the original documents, for example, the original will they have to get that posted and sent out to us as well. And they can contact us by phone as well.
Arjan Sehjal:
Phone lines are open from 9am to 1pm on Monday to Friday and once you ring us through there, you will get through to support officer, much like Nigel, or someone on my team. And they will be more than happy to answer your questions and take you through, you know what you think your case might need?
We do ask that the people who phone us are the applicants for probate who are on the case. If you're holding power reserved on an application, you can talk to us on the phone. And indeed if you’re a solicitor, of representing someone or an attorney representing someone you can talk to on the phone as well.
If you're a third party, so if you have a friend who's making an application for probate and they need some help with it, we can't talk to you. We need to talk to them. If it's a sibling or a family member or whatever, we need to talk to the applicant themselves.
However, if the applicant isn't keen on talking to us, but you know you're more confident doing so if you phone us in they’re in the room, we will ask them to go through some security questions and to verbally authorise you and then we're more than happy to speak to you as well. It does just mean that they have to be there to answer the security questions and that's the bit that has to happen every single time that you want to talk to us.
So where possible, we always ask for an applicant or someone holding power reserved on a case to be the ones to make the phone call.
Aaron Wilson:
Oh yeah, I just want to say thank you so much to, obviously, both of you, for coming on and chatting through and I said at the start, obviously I hoped I'd learn something new from today and I definitely can say I know a lot more about applying for probate now, which I think is something that, you know, something we get a lot of queries about online and that's really helpful to know all those inside tips as well.
But, really we've been trying to sort of finish these podcasts with, with a sort of a one liner from the people that we have on and really, I guess, what I want to ask you guys is: if you could give one piece of advice to someone who is going through probate, what would it be to make their journey a little bit smoother? And I’ll start with you Arjan and I’ll come to you first.
Arjan Sehjal:
Gosh, one line to make their journey smoother or their grant at probate? I suppose I would say don't rush it. You know, take your time and read through the questions carefully. And indeed, with a PA1P from there are notes on the question on a PA1P sort of prompting you what we're looking for. Don't rush to get it over the line because you think I want it in by Christmas, or, you know, this I will do before this person's mortgage runs out and I want him to buy the property.
An application for probate, it's best done once you've considered, because when you're sending us things, you're making a declaration to the court saying that this is true to the best of my knowledge. So it's always best to sort of consider what information you're giving us, and making sure you cover as many bases as you can, so we've spoken about unaccounted executors. We spoke about if we suspect there's going to be IHT to pay, we will act, we will ask you to go down that line.
So cover as many bases as you can and yeah, that would be my, my sort of thing would be take your time with it and it's best done correctly and best done once.
Aaron Wilson:
Brilliant. And how about you, Nigel? What would you say?
Nigel Wilson:
I’d say to anyone that's applying for probate, that we're here to support you from the moment that you actually apply for probate, we will look at the application. I'd say there are many occasions where the grant is issued, before 12 weeks, as well.
Aaron Wilson:
Well unfortunately, that's all we've got time for today and a huge, huge thanks to Arjan and Nigel for coming on to talk to us about applying for probate and sharing some inside knowledge on the best ways to do so.
Hopefully this has been an insightful episode for you all and like me, you've learned something new.
If you are needing to apply for probate or in the process of applying and do have a question, please do feel free to contact our probate helpline or our webchat or failing all else, send us a message on our social media channels.
We'll be back for another podcast in June, but for now, from all of us here at HMCTS, goodbye and take care.
