https://insidehmcts.blog.gov.uk/classroom-to-the-court-room-podcast-transcript/
Classroom to the court room - podcast transcript
Amber Farmer:
First, I thought the system was very rigid. You know, the judges would be terrifying. You know, it'd be hard to talk to them, but they're just so easy to talk to and personable. They really do care about the system and helping students like us advance in our careers when it comes to law.
Liz Bryant:
Hello and welcome to this H.M. Courts and Tribunals Service podcast.
Imagine you've just started a law degree at university, and you're excited to learn more about the justice system and the role you can play. But maybe you've never been to court in real life and you aren't sure what jobs you could be suited to. Well, here at HMCTS, we're working in partnership with judges and the University of Reading to give students a valuable insight into life at criminal court and the roles we offer.
I'm Liz Bryant from the communications team here at HMCTS, and I'm here with District Judge Sam Goozee. He's the Resident District Judge for Berkshire Magistrates’ Courts and the leadership judge for the south east region. Hello, Judge.
Judge Goozee:
Hello.
Liz Bryant:
And we're also joined by Senior Legal Manager Rachel Newman from Thames Valley Magistrates’ Court. Hi, Rachel.
Rachel Newman:
Hi.
And finally, we're also here with Liz Conaghan, an Associate Professor and Director of Mooting and Advocacy at the School of Law at the University of Reading. Welcome, Liz.
Liz Conaghan:
Thank you so much.
Liz Bryant:
And a bit later on, we'll also be talking to two students, Amber and Zahra, from the School of Law, who will be sharing their experiences. Welcome everyone and thank you so much for joining us. So, I'd like to come to you first, Rachel. Can you tell us a bit about the joint outreach program between HMCTS and the law school?
Rachel Newman:
Yes, as part of, raising awareness of the legal roles that we have within HMCTS. We thought it would be helpful to go out, to reach out to our local universities across the region so that we could build up a relationship with the law departments and offer, opportunities for the law students to come into the magistrates’ courts, see the role of the legal advisor, see the roles of the judges, do some criminal, see some criminal act applications, and also to raise awareness of the different roles and career opportunities across HMCTS.
Liz Bryant:
So how long's it been running?
Rachel Newman:
We started a couple of years ago. We started, we started small and the first opportunities were to offer I think, 40 students, an opportunity to come and do some court observations. So we had a number of students visit over a period of a week observing the criminal courts, some with magistrates sitting, some with District Judge Goozee sitting in, and we opened it up for an opportunity to answer their questions, explain what types of cases they would be hearing in the court rooms and giving them a little opportunity to see what happens in the magistrates’ court.
We also have worked very closely with Liz to do some mooting cases, and we called it speed mooting, where Judge Goozee and I have been to the University and the students have prepared a moot for us and done some advocacy. And Judge Goozee and I have given feedback to the students as a result of that. In addition, the students have been to the magistrates' court and they have prepared and delivered bail applications and plea in mitigations to Judge Goozee in the courtroom.
Rachel Newman:
Judge Goozee has been presiding, and then he's gone through at the end with them, some feedback and how he would sentence the particular case or whether he would grant bail or refuse bail in the bail application scenario. So we've just really been building up lots of different opportunities for the students to give them some first-hand experience in the courtroom, to see some, criminal cases in action and for them to get involved in doing, delivering some advocacy in front of our resident judge.
Liz Bryant:
Tell me a bit more about mooting. What is speed mooting?
Liz Conaghan:
Speed mooting is really when you're doing legal argument quite quickly. And it can take a variety of forms. But the essence is it's short and quick and minimum preparation needed. So the benefit of that is you will often attract a number of students who maybe cannot commit to a longer-term competition, which perhaps requires, skeleton argument and the exchange of bundles and much longer submissions it’s brilliant for confidence building, and it's brilliant for employability skills.
Liz Bryant:
So it sounds as if all of you think it's a very worthwhile and quite a valuable thing to be involved in this kind of outreach work. Why is it important to each of you as it were, individually?
Judge Goozee:
I mean, from my perspective, it's A making sure we have an opportunity for students to understand what we do as judges and how we approach things.
But actually, in this particular project, it's had the added advantage of building that relationship between the students at Reading and understanding that qualifying as a lawyer there are huge opportunities within H.M. Courts and Tribunals Service, you know, as legal advisers, roles which it was clear from conversations that they had never, even thought about as potential career opportunities. And my passion comes from that because that's my background.
I was a legal advisor in the court service. I became a senior manager in the court service while sitting as a deputy, before becoming full time. So I think for us, it's about selling that, as a career opportunity, but also the passion of the students, getting them, letting them understand the role of the magistrates court.
And they realise what I do on a day to day basis and types of cases. It was quite clear from the conversations that, you know, they're learning about criminal law and criminal justice system, but to hear about how it works in practice is really important for them, because it's not all about Crown Court cases with juries and, judges in wigs and gowns, but doing it in a way that gives them a practical, ability to practice on their feet, delivering a bail application, making a plea in mitigation, putting forward a legal argument, and getting feedback there and then from somebody who can say, well, in reality, this is what would happen.
Rachel Newman:
I mean, it's a similar thing for me, really. I've been a legal advisor for 35 years, and it's a fabulous role. I've I still enjoy the job I do, and it's not a job as Judge Goozee has said, that is widely known with within law students and universities and something we're trying to raise awareness of that there are these fabulous opportunities within HMCTS, not just as a legal advisor, but there are other legal opportunities in the tribunals for case workers.
And they're often opportunities that law students are not familiar with.
Liz Bryant:
Liz, this outreach program, it sounds like it's very practical. A lot of, you know, participating, taking part. How does it fit in with the sort of official law curriculum at the University of Reading?
Liz Conaghan:
We take co-curricular activities really seriously, and we think that there's great value in those.
And different students will have a go at different things. But being able to have a go, I think is the most important aspect. And what has been so nice actually, with DJ Goozee and with Rachel is the feedback that they've given to the students. It's just been really constructive but so encouraging and affirming. And I happen to know that, you know, some of our students were quite nervous about appearing before them because, you know, that's a that's a real judge.
But if we can all have the confidence and the ability to stand up and, and say a few words, that that goes a long way. And I think that's why it's very valuable to hear from people in those professions. And maybe people will say, well, you know, I didn't start where you see me now. It was a process and a journey.
And that kind of honesty can be very, very helpful, to our students. And that's why we're just so grateful for this collaboration.
Liz Bryant
Students have lots of different sort of outlooks and, and levels of confidence. Do you think this kind of opportunity is particularly helpful for students from more diverse backgrounds, from a range of different experiences?
Liz Conaghan:
Yes, indeed. We have a number of students at the University of Reading who are from widening participation backgrounds, many of whom may not know anyone, for example, who is, trained to be a lawyer, or a barrister, many of whom that it will be their first, opportunity to within their family to attend higher education.
Also, we have many, many of our students. I would say most from my sort of anecdotal experience have to hold down jobs as well. So they are dealing with, financial pressures to and that's why I think, you know, just maybe committing an afternoon to going along to the magistrates court or Judge Goozee and Rachel coming to us for an afternoon is brilliant for those students who maybe cannot commit the time to something much more labor intensive, but they can still participate.
Liz Bryant:
Judge Goozee, if I can come back to you. I think you mentioned that you started out actually as a legal advisor. Can you tell us a bit more detail about your journey from there, how you started and how you, and how you ended up as a district judge?
Judge Goozee:
Yeah, I mean, I left private practice after a couple of years, and became a legal advisor in the magistrates' courts in Hampshire.
I then transferred back to Dorset, where eventually I became a legal manager and then a deputy justice clerk, as they were then senior legal manager now. And then I shifted myself completely to Yorkshire, North and West Yorkshire, where I took on the role of Justices Clerk for North and West Yorkshire, a role which is now become the head of legal operations, I suppose is the closest equivalent.
And during that time, I became a, I applied to be a deputy district judge. So, I sat a few days a month. Luckily, the civil Service is supportive of releasing staff to do judicial sittings part time, up to 20 days a year. So, I took advantage of that. And also sat on my own leave to get my sittings up.
And then I was lucky enough to get a full-time appointment in 2016. So my whole, apart from the two years I spent, defending, and prosecuting on and off in Bournemouth, my whole career has been, as a legal advisor in the magistrates courts and a role which, you know, like Rachel, I, I loved it from the moment I started it and it it's provided me and it provides many legal advisers now in the court service the opportunity to apply for part time and full time judicial appointment.
It's a great platform.
Liz Bryant:
Rachel, if I can come back to you. So, are you able to tell us a bit more about the kinds of roles that within HMCTS, within the civil service that these students could go on to do? Obviously, the judge was speaking about his experience as a legal advisor, but what other kinds of roles might be suitable for them when they graduate?
Rachel Newman:
Yeah. So, in addition to I mean, obviously, I followed a similar route to Judge Goozee and that I did a law degree, I qualified as a barrister and then cross qualified as a solicitor. And have worked throughout HMCTS throughout that time. But there are other routes for those who don't go on to do the professional qualification. There are some case managers, case managers within the Tribunals Service where they have some delegated powers, where they deal with the case management of tribunal cases.
So, they're using their legal background to be able to assist the judges at the tribunal service, to progress the cases. And they there is the opportunity also to then undertake qualifications doing the CILEX training, which HMCTC sponsors so they can become qualified under the CILEX and become a qualified lawyer, which then entitles them in due course to be able to apply for judicial appointments if that's a route that they wish to undertake.
So, there are opportunities for those who have got a law degree or in fact any degree to come into the service. And we do offer sponsorship and apprenticeships for those wishing to qualify as a lawyer. And as I say, that then opens up a number of different opportunities. Once you're within HMCTS or the Civil Service, there are huge numbers of opportunities.
You can go to other government departments, the government legal services. There are opportunities throughout.
Liz Bryant:
Okay. So, Liz, how common is this kind of program in academia that this sort of outreach program giving students an opportunity to spend time in and interact with, the criminal courts?
Liz Conaghan:
It's something which has been developing since I've been at the University of Reading.
So, I've been there for about ten years. And certainly we have been building up that relationship with, local court. So in addition to the work which we are doing with the Magistrates’ Court, we often hold activities with the Crown Court as well. So, for example, we did a mock trial there earlier this year, which is brilliant fun.
Not least because I often get to play a witness. So I get to, a little long held ambition to be an actor comes out probably too strongly. But I think I would recommend it to anyone if you are lucky enough to be at a university which has criminal courts. So obviously we have the magistrates and the Crown Court and we are, you know, very, very near in Reading to, to getting to London as well.
So, there's a whole host of opportunities there. It's absolutely brilliant things do, not least because it gives students an authentic experience is only so much we can do in the university, you know, with mocking something up in a classroom, but actually to go to a court to see the infrastructure, to see what it looks like, to see and meet the people who work there, that's something which we cannot hope to replicate.
And that authentic experience is very valuable.
Liz Bryant:
Judge, if I can come back to you, what's been your most memorable moment during your involvement with this program?
Judge Goozee:
The best moments were the ones that, you know, Liz was encouraging for the first time, and watching them just get through that short plea in mitigation, that short legal argument, the first time they've been on their feet, the first time they may have been in a courtroom environment, you know, and to get feedback.
But it's just watching their faces and the sense of relief that they've done it, and also the realisation that they can do it and they've got, you know, what they're learning academically, they can put into practice, in you know, putting forward an argument and its great fun. And some of them are real, they bring a lot of theatrics to it andyou know, they some of them are got a great deal of confidence. But know it's those ones that, you know, you're drawing them out of their shell, whether they're first year students, second year students, the third-year students. And just, you know, the moment where they have done that and you can see that they have they feel they've achieved something and that those are the best moments.
Liz Conaghan:
I think there's also a great value in the discussions afterwards and getting an insight into the criminal justice system, because our students will obviously read about the case law, they'll read the bits of legislation which are relevant to various criminal offenses, but actually to hear from people who are aware day in, day out of the kinds of things which are going on in the local community, the kinds of people who are coming before them, maybe on a regular basis.
The stories behind that and actually understanding this is a much more complex picture. I think that can be so tremendously helpful in students being able to form an understanding of, you know, who their client might be and what kind of complex backgrounds a client may be bringing with them to the criminal justice system.
Judge Goozee:
I think that I mean, that's really important because, you know, we're not talking to students about particular cases, but we're talking to them about the types of work that come before the magistrates' courts.
But when you start talking about the wider criminal justice system and how people end up becoming involved in crime, whether it's through organised crime, county lines, you know, drugs and alcohol and how that really affects the work that we do on a day to day basis, that generates a lot of interest amongst the students because that that's the practical reality of life, how people end up becoming involved in crime.
Many people don't see crime as a particular career. They see it as an exciting part of the criminal of the legal profession, because that's how it gets portrayed on television and in dramas. But actually to say to these students, come down and sit at the back of a court and watch what comes through the average magistrates court on a day to day basis in the remand court, the first hearings court that will give you a flavor of what the real criminal justice system is like, and that helps then, and I hope Liz, it helps build on what they're learning in the lecture rooms and in their tutorials.
Liz Conaghan:
It’s hugely important, and not least because we want students who don't just know the law, but also maybe have the capacity to be able to understand, their client, whether or not that client is, the Crown Prosecution Service, whether or not it's the defendant themselves, that is a way sort of developing, I guess, a fully well-rounded lawyer.
Judge Goozee:
And it's not just crime, of course, the benefit of being able to talk to the students in the about magistrates' courts work is they've learned about how legal advisers sits in the family courts as well.
Rachel Newman:
But a lot of our work is civil proceedings as well. So we cover a really broad range and diverse areas, which makes our role interesting and varied each day.
Liz Bryant:
Thank you very much. Judge Goozee, Rachel and Liz for your time today and for your insights into this program and what it has to offer. It's been great to have you.
Thank you all. We're now going to talk to two students from Reading University Law Program, Amber Farmer and Zahra Navarro, to find out about your experiences of the program. So welcome to you both. Thank you very much for joining us. So if I can ask you first, how much did you know about legal careers with HMCTS or with the civil service before you took part in this program?
Amber Farmer:
Absolutely nothing, to be very honest with you. I didn't know that you could really persue learning through them or, you know, the paths that were available, and it's just amazing to find out all the opportunities you had once I came to university.
Zahra Navarro:
Similar to Amber, I had no idea either, but the University of Reading has really been set on showing us the different career routes that we have gotten into, and I think that's something that they have done different to other universities, and they have shown us so many career paths that you can go into and it’s now opened my eyes into them.
Liz Bryant:
Taking part in this program. Being in the court, meeting the people involved has it influenced your ideas about your future careers?
Amber Farmer:
I think it's definitely consolidated the fact that I want to be a barrister, just, getting to experience that court setting in person really gives you a thrill that I don't think you can find anywhere else.
Liz Bryant:
Tell me a bit about how it actually works. Your experiences. What have you done? What have you taken part in? What's really stood out for you?
Amber Farmer:
Me and Zahra both participated in a speed moot with Judge Goozee and Rachel Newman judging. I came second and Zahra was third, and we just got some amazing feedback from the judges, that you just couldn't find anywhere else.
Zahra Navarro:
Yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
It was also about an area of law that we hadn’t learn about in first year or in second year as well. So it was everyone was on the same playing field, there were people who were in first year, people in third year there.
Liz Bryant:
So what stood out for you most about the program? Has it been as you expected? Has there been anything surprising about it?
Amber Farmer:
First, I thought the, system was very rigid. You know, the judges would be terrifying. You know, it'd be hard to talk to them, but they're just so easy to talk to and personable. They really do care about the system and helping students like us advance in our careers when it comes to law.
I just didn't realize how welcoming everyone would be.
Zahra Navarro:
We both have our aspirations and interests right now, but we don't necessarily know what may happen in a couple years, that a great opportunity may come up in an area that we're very interested in. And you might apply, you might just get it. So I think one of the most important things that university has taught us is you have to keep that open mind in terms of what career path you're going to go down.
Liz Bryant:
So what would you say to any other students that you know who might be considering getting involved in this program or something similar?
Amber Farmer:
I'd say just go for it. What is the worst that can happen? It's honestly an amazing experience and everyone's in the same position as you. Everyone's nervous. Even I'm nervous most of the time about it and there's honestly so much good comes out it. The University of Reading’s collaboration with you guys has been a very unique opportunity that I haven't heard that many other universities had, which I’d say I'm very grateful for.
Zahra Navarro:
Yeah, just take advantage of any opportunity that you can have, because it may lead to somewhere that you never even thought it would.
Liz Bryant:
So having this opportunity to practice what you've been learning at university and having the experience of being in a court and speaking in front of a judge, how's that being beneficial for you?
Amber Farmer:
I think it's really allowed me to envision what my future could look like, which has definitely helped me know that this is what I want to do.
Seeing it all happen in real life and having people like Judge Goozee say that I was very talented, It just spurs you on.
Liz Bryant:
Thank you to, to Amber and Zahra for sharing your experiences with us today. Thank you for having us. If you'd like to find out more about job roles available in HMCTS or the Civil Service, please visit HMCTSjobs.co.uk. And check out our bio on wherever you listen to this podcast for more on HMCTS, including where to find us on Gov.uk and social media Thank you for listening, please join us again soon.
