https://insidehmcts.blog.gov.uk/evicting-the-stereotypes-the-real-bailiffs-at-work-part-2-podcast-transcript/
Evicting the Stereotypes: The Real Bailiffs at Work (Part 2) - podcast transcript
Aaron Wilson:
Welcome back to the Inside HMCTS podcast. Now, last week I promised you that we'd be back with the conclusion of our bailiff episode and that we'd also wrap up with Claire, Wendy, and Karen during their time on the road. And that's exactly what we're going to do today. I'm also joined this week by Rodger, Tatiana and Wendy, who I should also add is our second Wendy and not to be confused with the first.
I'm also rejoined by Muneeba and Sarah, who you'll remember from last week's episode, so welcome to all of you. Now, before we dive into some questions here, let's head back to Claire now to find out what happened next on her day with Wendy and Karen.
Claire Powell:
As I drove around with Wendy and Karen, it became clear that eviction is just a part of the job. I asked Wendy to tell me more about the different types of enforcement available to claimants.
Wendy Jones:
Claimants have got a choice of which type of enforcement they want to go for. The most common one is the warrant of control. Which they can either ask for the full amount or that can ask for a part payment. They're more likely to get the part payment because it's obviously a smaller amount. We've got maybe five different big companies. We call them the big five. And they're all companies that have bought debts from, catalogues, credit cards, phone companies, all sorts of, you know, that there are thousands of warrants that are issued every day from those from those kind of companies. And then they've bought a debt from them. And then they try and enforce the warrants to retrieve the money. They are the ones that will always make arrangements with people.
I mean, the purpose of a warrant of control really, it gives us the power to remove goods.
Claire Powell:
Yeah.
Wendy Jones:
To the value of the debt that's been collected and the cost of removal and sale has to be included as well.
Aaron Wilson:
We'll go back to Claire again shortly, but I just want to talk a bit more about becoming a bailiff. We had a few messages off the back of last week's episode. So Wendy, I wondered, as a bailiff manager, whether you could give us a better idea of what someone who joined your team might be doing on a day to day basis?
Wendy Seear:
So, we don't really have typical days for bailiffs. Every single day is different, and that's what's very good about the job and it's what the bailiffs enjoy the most. Whereas an administration duty would be you clock in at nine, you leave five, ‘bailiffing’ is very, very different. It's very flexible. So, the bailiff can either work from home to set up their, what we call a DRS, ready for the bailiff manager. Or they can go to the office to work. They'll take their warrants or their work for the day, they'll go out for the day. They may go back to the office to finish up, or they might go home to finish up. On a day a bailiff could find themselves doing anything from a warrant of control to serving non-molestation orders to serving a divorce, to doing evictions. So it can be very varied.
Aaron Wilson:
And would you agree with that, Tatiana? How does your day usually go?
Tatiana Abreu:
Like, obviously there's the misconception of, like, Can't Pay, Take it Away, but, I think we do quite the opposite. Like we go into people's houses, like we talk to them, we help them resolve the issue. We try to get the defendants to talk to the claimant. Find a middle ground, whether that's a payment plan or just helping their situation financially, give them a bit of advice, who they can bring to talk to, for example, to their mental health, who they can talk to about, like debt relief orders and stuff. And probably day to day like we do quite a lot of knocking on doors, speaking to people.
It's more like running errands sort of thing so like running like warrants of control. Sometimes we get the odd like, non-molestation orders, divorce, like child acts which take priority so we have to do those. But yeah, every day is just trying to bring the claimant and the defendant, like, closer together to establish something that they're both happy with.
Aaron Wilson:
Now, we've heard there isn't really a typical day for our bailiffs, and we're now going to go back to Claire as she finds out more on how Wendy and Karen deal with the unexpected.
Claire Powell:
Later on in the day, things took an unexpected turn when Wendy received a phone call from another bailiff team asking for backup.
Wendy Jones:
We've just had a phone call from, the bailiff team that are on an eviction. They’ve requested assistance because they've got a female in the property who, is refusing to leave. She's become quite agitated and they’ve rung to say that she's just taken her clothes off, and they're very uncomfortable. So can we go along to assist them so that's where we’re going. We've got, another waiting to be attended. So they're going to go along with those and, myself and Karen, we’re going to go and see what's going on here at this eviction.
Claire Powell:
Later on, we'll find out what happens at that eviction. But between jobs, I was very curious to know what happens to tenants if they reach the stage of being evicted from their property.
Wendy Jones:
Ok, so we are not, you know, legally trained if you like, that's the terminology. But we make it our business to have all the information that we can give to anybody that we're evicting, what the next steps are, now what they would, what they would normally, what they’re advised to do, is as soon as they get possession claim documentation is to present themselves to the council immediately to start the ball rolling with the council in finding them a property, because eventually they will become homeless.
So it's just making sure if they've got any kind of special medical needs that the right property can be found.
Claire Powell:
When you get home in the evening, are you able to switch off from stuff that you've seen in the day?
Karen Anemaet:
Sometimes things play on my mind, you know? And I think all wonder what happens to that little old man or, you know, because you do feel bad for people sometimes. You know, sometimes you've gone into a property where they've been living in such squalid conditions, you know, so it does play on your mind a little bit.
But I think as you kind of get into the job more, you kind of learn to push it away, you know? It is just part and parcel of the job and you learn not everyone lives the same.
Claire Powell:
As the day progressed, it became more and more clear that the work of bailiffs is very detailed and varied. I asked Wendy to tell me more about what training bailiffs receive when they first enter the service.
Wendy Jones:
Largely, I mean, when I started, I just went out every day. There was no there was no official package, there was no training plan. I just went out every day with every bailiff and learned on the job. I had a notebook, which I'll tell you, I had a headache for about three months when I, when I first did the job because trying to remember everything, and I thought I'll never remember all this, but, you know, gradually you do.
And then you ask more questions and gradually you just learn it. But then we've had a couple of training packages, which is good. So you've got all different aspects of all the different processes broken down. And then they would be explained by Karen or whoever's doing the training. And then they’re ticked off and then, we would meet with the manager maybe at the end of each week just to go through everything.
But there's nothing like actually learning out on the road. Any new bailiffs cannot actually go out on the road until they've got their stab vest. Which is actually quite a good thing now with the new Bailiff Learner Journey, because the first weeks of the bailiff training now is actually learning the background of everything in the office.
Which is, which is really good because they learn about the process right from the beginning of each of these, of these processes we've got so that they fully understand, why you've got the attachment of owners. They can feel confident in giving information at the doorstep instead of not having an idea.
It's a far more, complex training program, which is really good. There's also a brand new, face-to-face training course, which is a three day course, being rolled out maybe over the last six months now. So, new bailiffs come now are benefiting from the new course. And we are looking now to produce a bailiff manager's training course, which is going to be quite complex.
Aaron Wilson:
We'll return to the team one more time to find out exactly what happened at the end of that incident. But for now, I just wanted to address another question that's actually come up off the back of part one of this podcast, and that's about the application process. So, Tatiana, if you don't mind me coming to you, what's that like and what made you want to become a bailiff initially?
Tatiana Abreu:
I don't know, I knew that I kind of wanted to go into something that helps people and I knew that I wanted to go into something that is also in the court, like you kind of are your own boss in the sense, like you kind of work the hours you want, like you kind of do your own thing, like you are your own boss in terms of like you manage your own diary.
So that to me appealed, because the fact that we have flexibility. So, for example, if one day I have like a doctor's appointment, I don't have to take the day off, I can just work before my doctor's appointment or after. So, it's quite flexible, I'd say.
Aaron Wilson:
And how about you Muneeba, welcome back by the way, what would your advice be to someone who is considering applying to become a bailiff?
Muneeba Nasir:
I think it's one of the best decisions I ever made. Basically if you’re patient and you know, if you have the ability to remain calm in stressful situations, that's absolutely the job for you.
You know, also, you need to be able to accept all the criticism while you're working under this pressure because people are going to come with all sorts, you know, you just have to have the knowledge and the ability to deal with that situation because you don't know what the next house is going to be like or what the next person is going to be like, but you're going to be knocking on the door too.
So and also, you know, you need to be understanding about all the court procedures and regulations, because a lot of the time, their like: “you don't even know what you're doing”. So you know, “can you tell us that more about this?”, so I think whatever you're doing, you should be able to have full knowledge of all the rights that you have and that they have as well.
So, you know, a lot of the time you have to make them feel in charge as well. Like, look, you know, these are the things that you can do. I'm not here to do this. I'm here to help you before we get to this part. So it's never sort of like an attack on somebody, you know, you need to come out and you need to do this right now, or we're going to take everything away. No, it doesn't work like that and it absolutely doesn't work like how it shows on the TV.
Aaron Wilson:
Rodger, firstly, welcome to the podcast. You are the first male bailiff that we've had on, in these episodes. And I know we covered this a little bit in last week's episode, but I just want to ask you from your perspective, how different your job is to the TV shows that we see on our screens.
Rodger Day:
It's hugely different. I've, been in, I would say possibly fortunate, maybe the unfortunate position, I did get collared to do one of the TV programmes when they first started. The TV is very scripted, the producers, the cameramen that will be there with you, they tell you where to stand, where to look, essentially what to do. It's nothing like reality.
We're not commission based, we're salaried. So for us, as much as we do look to recover the money, we're also there to try and support people, help people. We fully understand that most people can't pull £3000 out of their back pocket. Times are difficult for everyone, including us. We understand that people just haven't got that much money. So for us, it's a case of more trying to get them to accept liability on the debt and then try and steer them towards a payment plan.
But we do stress to them that whatever they, especially if it's done through a court order, that whatever they agree to pay will be set down in a court order so it becomes binding, so then it's got to be something they can afford at the end of each month.
What we don't want to do is for them to come back and say, “oh, that's great, I can pay £500 a month, but then I can't pay my rent because then you control warrant essentially becomes a possession warrant when they haven't paid their rent for the next 18 months because they're paying off their debts.
So for us, I think we work as much as we are bailiffs, we also work as a support system for people as well. We're not we're not there to be heavy handed. We're not there to cause people problems or inflict misery. We just want the debts to be paid and for people to be comfortable with what they're paying.
Aaron Wilson:
You strike me as someone who enjoys your job, I think is the sort of vibe I'm getting from you. What do you think, for you, is the best part about your role?
Rodger Day:
Meeting different people. I have met some weird and wonderful people, really have. And I think not being office bound is always nice and it is just variety. There are no two days that are ever the same.
I genuinely walk in the office in the morning and go: “well I wonder what I've got today” because it won't be the same as yesterday, and I'll guarantee it won't be the same as tomorrow.
The actual the work is the same at a base level, so it still warrants of control, it's still warrants of possession, it's still serving process. That bit will never change, but that's a very small part of it, because once you've got that, you're then walking into the unknown which is different people, different situations, and literally anything can and probably has happened at some point.
Aaron Wilson:
I think Tatiana mentioned about the working arrangement earlier, but I just want to ask you personally more about your work life balance. What's it like being able to manage your own work agenda?
Rodger Day:
It's actually really good. Because they've got the flexibility to start and finish when they want. So, they can start at six in the morning and other days they can finish at nine at night, it’s encouraged, obviously people work, so for us being out at 1pm in the afternoon, knocking on doors, can be a little bit pointless sometimes because you're just not going to get to meet people. No one is going to answer the door because they're at work.
So for us, we sort of balance it a little bit. We'll start early, we'll finish late, we'll do Saturday mornings. So it means that during the week, if we've got something that we really need to get to, one of my lads, he has a medical appointment sort of 3:30pm in the afternoon. So for him that's great because he can start early in the morning, he's cleared his day’s work. He can then go and see that.
We've got some that have had school aged children. So some mornings they can take them to school, some mornings they can pick them up from school. They generally can't do both, but they can do one or the other. So the flexible working is probably one of the big draws to the job.
Aaron Wilson:
And Muneeba and Sarah, obviously you were on last week's episode, but I don't think this is something we covered there.
I know often you're out on your own when you're doing your job, but how important are your teams and working collectively to you?
Muneeba Nasir:
I think it's really important Aaron, because what I've learned from my team in the last three years, everyone has a different way and a protocol of dealing with things and a lot of the time, you can use those skills and techniques the way other people deal with it could, you might think you're doing it right, but there might be somebody else who's more experienced and, you know, we have these bailiffs who've been here for years and years and years like, you know, it's that good of a job. It's like people don’t actually want to leave.
So you do, you know, sort of share your sort of experience with them and they'll tell you how you can do it more, better next time and you know, because a lot of the time we get like things from a landlords and, you know, housing associations where I think, you know, that we should be just there doing their stuff, if you know what I mean. But, you know, a lot of the time you have to, sort of tell them like, no, look, this is how it works, and you have to be firm and these are the things that your team and your line managers, you know, sort of like, tells, you no, you don't have to go out of your way to do this thing.
This is how it works, these are how many days they have to wait for this appointment or, you know, so yeah, these are the things that you learn on a daily basis of how to deal with, like, you know, landlords or tenants or things like that. Every day, every situation is totally different. It's never the same.
Sarah Bell:
Oh, it's massively important.
It's a bit of a standing joke, I've been here a long time, and I'm the only girl. So it's like anything high risk, it’s like “ask Sarah, ask Sarah” and when my boss is off, I do cover for him.
And yeah, if I ever need assistance, if I’m somewhere on a job and I need assistance I know I can ring any of them, and no matter how far away they are, they wouldn't go: “oh no, no, I'm not coming”, they'll go: “right then I'll be there”. Like everyone says, I'll be there in 30 minutes, could be five minutes around the corner, but nobody would leave you hanging. Nobody.
Aaron Wilson:
Well thank you to all my guests for joining me today. It's been a pleasure to have you all on, and for everyone listening, we'll be back with another exciting episode in the very near future. But I know you all have been anxiously waiting to find out what happened on Claire's visit. So for the final word today, I'm going to hand back to her to wrap up.
Claire Powell:
As the day drew to a close, and while I was waiting for Wendy in the car, she came out to tell me what had happened with the lady that had refused to leave the property and what the next step would be.
Wendy Jones:
We're quite a little way on now, like we've been here quite a lot of good couple of hours now. Still waiting for the police. They've just told us that they are actually, we are their next call. We’ve managed to persuade the lady to get dressed, which is good and it's progress.
We understand from the family that there had been some kind of vulnerabilities. When the police come and we'll explain that the situation, they know that these things don't just happen just like that. This has been going on for a long time.
The claimants in this case, seemingly have been very, very lenient with her. They've tried all sorts of ways to try and reach her and try and come to some agreements. But it's just come to nothing and that's, that's why we're here.
