https://insidehmcts.blog.gov.uk/global-effort-ensuring-justice-for-all-podcast-transcript/
Global Effort: Ensuring justice for all - podcast transcript
[English] - [Cymraeg]
Dr Alejandro Ponce:
I'm Alejandro Ponce, chief research officer at the world justice project. Last week, I got a chance to check out the UK effort to implement the OECD access to justice recommendation. I really like what I saw. It's one of the first serious attempts to push for people's under justice and make courts more inclusive. There are 3 things that I found particularly interesting.
First, the 7-step framework for improving court services that helps identify the problem using data, come up with solutions, and monitor progress. Second, that the framework is flexible enough to work with different legal systems. And third, it encourages continuous improvement. Something that I also like about this initiative is that it's not just theoretical. It contains practical data driven strategies and real-world examples, making it quite relevant for practitioners. It is fantastic work.
Aaron Wilson:
Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Inside HMCTS with me, Aaron Wilson, from the communications team. Today, we're going to be talking about a recent OECD roundtable event that took place in Canada that my colleague, Luc Altmann, attended to discuss, our essential work around enabling and improving access to justice for all. So we'll be catching up with Luc on his return from the event a little bit later on in the podcast. But prior to him traveling out there, I spoke with him to find out a bit more about the aims of the trip and the importance of international discussion on access to justice.
So, Luc, tell me your your role, first of all, at HMCTS. What is that? What do you do and, can you tell me a little bit about this event as well that you're going to?
Luc Altmann:
So my name is Luc Altmann, and I'm the Head of Insight for HMCTS. So that means my team provides all the evidence for the department to inform its decision making. I'm going to be be in Ottawa at the OECD Global Roundtable on Access to Justice, and I'm going to be be presenting a paper that we're jointly publishing with the OECD. If you're not familiar with the organization, they're a group of 38 countries who promote better policies for its member countries to adopt. And each year since, I think, about 2016, they've held a roundtable on access to justice.
The roundtable is at it's a two day conference with expert led presentations, discussions, workshops, and all things related to access to justice. This year, the the topic for the roundtable is people centered justice or what we call in HMCTS user centered justice. It's something we know a lot about in HMCTS because a user centered approach has been an important part of the HMCTS reform programme. And it's, you know, really sort of the basis and the essence of the work that we do in my user insight team.
Aaron Wilson:
And what about the paper you're going to be presenting to the round table? What's that all about?
Luc Altmann:
The paper I'm presenting is a practical guide on how to measure and improve access to justice in court services. It's based on some of the work we published in autumn 2023 to assess access to justice in our services, and we're going to be publishing more this autumn as well. It's probably one of the biggest programmes of work we've had in the insight team. We've been working on it for a few years now.
And as the OECD has recognised and commented on, it's a truly innovative and world leading piece of work because we are the only people at the moment measuring and improving access to justice in our court services in this way. The work we've done is assessed access to justice in 6 services, including divorce, online civil money claims, the immigration tribunal.
Aaron Wilson:
Are you seeing any evidence or any positive effects of this work as well that you can explain to our listeners?
Luc Altmann:
We've now got evidence of where we've actually improved access to justice in the services. So it's a it's a really big deal.
This is very much a team effort, and it's been a collaboration between the different analytical professions in government, but notably the government social research profession, which I'm part of and most of the team is, as well as the operational research services.
Aaron Wilson:
I know you've sort of outlined a few points about it, but why is it important to get everyone together in the same room and have these conversations?
Luc Altmann:
It's really important to kind of bring together different countries' perspectives on how to deliver global justice policies. And what work have you and your team done so far in relation to this? We've taken a kind of a world leading approach to court reform, and our use of evidence and our approach to our sort of user centered approach is really innovative, and they want to kind of bring that expertise in from us in the UK, but also kind of take views in from all of those other countries.
There's some amazing work being done in Canada and Australia and across Europe, and bringing those kind of experts together in one place as an opportunity to kind of share ideas, basically.
Aaron Wilson:
For you, obviously, it's an overseas trip. What are you looking forward to most about sort of meeting with other justice partners over abroad?
Luc Altmann:
I feel I think that there's probably two things I'm really looking forward to about the roundtable. One is to kind of hear what other countries are doing and kind of potentially bring back some ideas. Ideas in terms of, data that other countries are collecting and how they're using that data to improve their services and make their services more user centered. But, also, I feel like we've done some amazing work in this space, which is why we're publishing this policy paper with the OECD. And I'm really proud of that and really proud of the team's contribution to that, and I'm really keen to share that with other countries.
The aim of the paper, the reason we're publishing it with the OECD is because the OECD think that the work that we've done and the methodology we have to assess and improve access to justice is something that other countries can use and adapt. And if and if other countries can pick it up and use it to improve their services, I think that will be, you know, a huge a huge kind of win for us and be so great on the international stage.
Aaron Wilson:
It sounds a really interesting opportunity to obviously speak and learn different things, but I think one thing that perhaps our users will be thinking about is what does this mean for me and how does this benefit us? Could you talk a little bit about what it means for sort of access to justice and users coming to our court and tribunal system?
Luc Altmann:
What the access to justice assessment mean for users coming into the court services is that we're able to identify some of the barriers that they might face accessing justice through the court services. By measuring those barriers and understanding those barriers, we can help reduce them and remove them so that users can come into our court services and get the access to justice they need so that our services are easy to understand, easy to use, Our court system, both online and in in in in the physical space, is easy to navigate and get the outcome that they deserve.
Aaron Wilson:
So you've been going to the round table for a few years now. What sort of changes in trends to do to justice have you seen in your time attending?
Luc Altmann:
The big challenge for all the countries in the OECD now is the financial constraints that all governments and countries find themselves in. So the focus is often very much on how can you make the justice systems more effective and more efficient when they're all experiencing some of the same issues around a rise in, case backlogs and the financial constraints.
But the focus on the roundtables are always around people centered justice, and there can be a bit of a conflict between those financial pressures and designing, delivering services around the user.
Aaron Wilson:
How are you with flying? How are you looking forward to that trip?
Luc Altmann:
I'm looking forward to the flight. I've got 3 young kids, 7, 9 and 11.
So, most of the time when I'm traveling anywhere or getting on a plane, I'm looking after the 3 children as well so I'm looking forward to that peace and quiet on the flight. I've never been to Canada, so really looking forward to getting to Canada in the autumn and just absorbing a bit of, yeah, a bit of the Canadian culture. I'm only there for 3 days, but Ottawa is supposed to be a fantastic city. So, yeah, really looking forward to that.
Aaron Wilson:
I think we're due to catch up with you when you come back for the conference as well. So I'm looking forward to hearing more about what you've learned and how it was.
Luc Altmann:
Yeah. Well, look forward to coming back and telling you all about it.
Aaron Wilson:
Well, that was Luc prior to heading off to Canada, and I'm delighted to say that he's now managed to safely make it back to the UK to come and tell us more about the global roundtable event. But just before we do catch up with him, a gentle reminder that if you're enjoying the podcast, you can find more content on our Inside HMCTS blog pages, and you can also keep up to date with the latest releases by following us on social media across X, Facebook, LinkedIn, WhatsApp, and YouTube. And now back to you Luc, so tell us how it went firstly and what the main takeaways were.
Luc Altmann:
Yeah, thanks. Yeah. It went it went really well, kind of as planned. So as now, we went out to, launch our publication on measuring and improving access to justice in court services, and that kind of went off without a hitch. So it was launched, it was published, and got an opportunity to kind of present that to the OECD.
I did a 10 minute presentation, which went down really well, and there was a lot of questions and a lot of discussion off the back of that. You know, the hope from publishing that is that other countries are going to be, adopt it and use it in in in their court services as well.
So we had interest from a few countries, from Holland, from Chile, Thailand, the United States, as well as interest from the World Bank and the World Justice Project. So really positive stuff. And, yeah, hopefully, sort of next steps are to kind of be working with those other countries and through the OECD to help them adopt that process for measuring access to justice.
Aaron Wilson:
Lovely. Sounds like it was a good trip. We had we chatted before previously, before you traveled to Canada and you mentioned one of the aims of the OECD events is to sort of help different countries work together to deliver better policies. Do you think that the conversations you had with colleagues from other countries have contributed to that and delivering sort of better approaches to justice around the world?
Luc Altmann:
I think so. I think this paper is going to be kind of a big step in helping some of those countries assess and improve access to justice in their court services. They're really interested in the kind of methodologies we're using, and they're interested to kind of adopt them for their own purposes. And some of the other organizations like the World Bank and the World Justice Project were particularly interested in the kind of measures that we were using. So potentially, they can reuse it reuse those measures with other countries and as part of their work and their missions with other countries around the world.
Aaron Wilson:
Brilliant. Well, let's hear from a member of the World Justice Project who you spoke with at the event now.
Dr Alejandro Ponce:
I'm Alejandro Ponce, Chief Research Officer at the World Justice Project. Last week, I got a chance to check out the UK's effort to implement OECD access to justice recommendation. I really like what I saw.
It's one of the first serious attempt to push for people centered justice and make courts more inclusive. There are 3 things that I found particularly interesting. 1st, the 7 step framework for improving court services that helps identify the problem using data, come up with solutions, and monitor progress. 2nd, that the framework is flexible enough to work with different legal systems. And 3rd, it encourages continuous improvement.
Something that I also like about this initiative is that it's not just theoretical. It contains practical data driven strategies and real world examples, making it quite relevant for practitioners. It is fantastic work. Congratulations.
Aaron Wilson:
Well, that was really interesting to hear from Alejandro and sounds like the HMCTS contributions have been really well received. What were some of the things you learned from the conference? And was there anything surprising or unexpected that you took away from it?
Luc Altmann:
I think one of the takeaways from the OECD Conferences on Access to Justice is the the scope and the breadth of access to justice and what it means to other countries. It's always a good reminder that something like only 2 or 3% of all legal problems ever reach the court system.
And so a lot of the discussion around access to justice sits outside of the court system. So the work that we're doing, the work I was presenting, and the work that we do in HMCTS is only quite a small part of that access to justice ecosystem that all the other countries are thinking about. And even in the delivery of access to justice in in in the courts, I was sat next to a lady from the United Nations, and she had just come back from Fiji and Tonga where she was running a programme to deliver access to justice to some of the islands out there. And that involved, basically, going round on a boat, gathering up sort of judges and lawyers and court clerks and magistrates and going round from island to island and doing all the court cases, you know, in a day, registering all the births and the marriages, and the death, and then doing all the civil cases and the criminal cases, then, you know, going back on the boat and going around to these other islands. So even in the context of delivering access to justice in courts, other countries, you know, experiences are kind of very different to ours, and it's always a bit of a wake up that we're looking at quite a small niche in terms of access to justice.
Aaron Wilson:
And in terms of sort of the themes of the round table, I think you touched on this before when we spoke last time, but what was sort of the general theme of the conference?
Luc Altmann:
So the big theme's around kind of people centered justice as well as the use of data and insight and evidence. So as head of, user insight, I've got sort of a foot in both those camps, And the Reform programme that we've been working on has always been a user centered programme. And so, we've lot learnt a lot, and we've got a lot to kind of offer around people centered justice. And, obviously, heading up an insight team, there's a lot to kind of give and share around kind of the use of data and evidence and insight that hopefully this this paper that we've published kind of talks to both those things that has a very much a user centered, people centered approach.
And it hopefully, an exemplar of how to kind of use insight and data to improve access to justice.
Aaron Wilson:
It sounds like you were able to cover a lot of ground during the round table and during your presentation. So let's hear now from one of the OECD representatives on the day who shared her thoughts on how this is supporting network.
Marianne Piccinin Barbieri:
I'm Marianne Piccinin Barbieri, policy analyst at the OECD. With this paper, we hope to support policy makers across the world to measure access to justice and court services, tailoring to their specific context.
It provides practical guidance and good practice examples for using data to realize equal access to justice for all. Grounded in the OECD approach to people centered justice, This paper is part of a set of tools TOECD has been developing to help countries implement the OECD recommendation on access to justice and people centered justice.
Aaron Wilson:
What I'm getting from this is, you know, the importance of court users' experience, particularly within the justice system and how we can improve access to justice for people across the UK. Is this an unusual approach compared to other countries? Are they all trying to improve access, and why is it a really important thing to consider?
Luc Altmann:
In all, all countries are, of course, trying to improve access to justice. I think that the approach, one of the approaches that we have taken through this work that we've published is a kind of more structured and sort of formal way of actually getting a measurement and then making improvements off the back of data. To be able to do that, it's kind of reliant on having the right data. So having a having a data strategy that that allows you to collect the information to make those to do that assessment and make those improvements. That's certainly what other countries want to do, and they're a bit further sometimes behind in this sort of their reform journeys to kind of transform their data and kind of transform their services. So that's a good opportunity for them to hear kind of what we're doing.
Aaron Wilson:
And I get the impression that you've left the round table feeling quite positive. But what are the next steps for you and your team and for HMCTS, and where do we go from here? So the next steps in relation to kind of the work of the OECD is hopefully to try and get some of the other countries to adopt our processes. And there's a few countries, Holland and Chile, Thailand, and the United States who are interested in doing that. So going to be try and work with them, and they'll be working with the OECD as well to kind of adopt that process.
Aaron Wilson:
And speaking of Chile, I think you spoke with a few representatives from there on the day, and we can hear from one of them and what they had to say on our work now.
Ariel De la Maza:
My name is Ariel de la Masa. I'm the Chief of International Affairs and Cooperation from the Ministry of Justice and Human Rights in Chile and I'm here with Luc Altmann. We just witnessed his work, and we're very much interested in the project of measuring and improving access to justice in court services.
We in Chile have, very much involved judiciary in the problem of access to justice, especially in courts, and the tool that you have developed for measuring, the problems, and the gaps in access to justice and to try to address them. It's very interesting for us, and it's a tool that we're very much interested in applying in Chile.
Aaron Wilson:
Another really insightful reflection there. And I know we were talking a little bit about this before and talked about you looking forward to going to Canada previously, but how was it? How was the flight and how was, Ottawa in general? Did you get up to anything else while you're out there?
Luc Altmann:
Ottawa was brilliant. It was a quick journey. I was only there for for 3 nights, so it's quite a long way to go for quite a short period of time. But Ottawa is a a beautiful city. Obviously, it's the kind of administrative capital, so it's got all the government buildings there, which were lovely, and we had a look around those. And then on the final evening, I got the opportunity to go to a nice hockey game to watch the Ottawa Senators beat the Florida Panthers.
That was the first day of the season. So, a bit of a cultural highlight and got to meet some proper Canadians there. So, it's yeah, good fun.
Aaron Wilson:
Well, Luc, thank you so much for taking the time to come on to the podcast to talk about this important work and it sounds to me like it was an invaluable experience for both you and the organisation.
If you'd like to find out more about our work around this issue or are just interested in discovering more about justice in general, you can visit our blog by searching inside HMCTS in your browser. You'll also be able to find previous episodes of our podcast here, or you can also search HMCTS and visit our pages on GOV.UK.
So thanks to everyone for tuning into this episode, and we'll be back with another instalment very soon, which I believe we'll be looking back at 2024 in review, so until then, take care.
[English] - [Cymraeg]
Ymdrech Fyd-eang: Sicrhau cyfiawnder i bawb – trawsgrifiad podlediad
Dr Alejandro Ponce :
Alejandro Ponce ydw i, prif swyddog ymchwil Prosiect Cyfiawnder y Byd. Yr wythnos diwethaf, cefais gyfle i weld ymdrechion y DU i weithredu’r argymhelliad mynediad at gyfiawnder OCD. Roeddwn wir yn hoffi be welais i. Mae’n un o’r ymdrechion gwirioneddol gyntaf i wthio i sicrhau cyfiawnder i bobl ac i wneud y llysoedd yn fwy cynhwysol. Roedd 3 peth yr oeddwn yn meddwl oedd yn ddiddorol iawn.
Yn gyntaf, y fframwaith 7 cam i wella gwasanaethau llys, sy’n adnabod y broblem trwy ddefnyddio data, meddwl am ddatrysiadau a monitro cynnydd. Yn ail, bod y fframwaith yn ddigon hyblyg i weithio gyda systemau cyfreithiol gwahanol. Ac yn drydydd, mae’n annog gwella’n barhaus. Rhywbeth arall dw i’n ei hoffi am y fenter hon yw nad yw’n ddamcaniaethol yn unig. Mae’n cynnwys strategaethau ymarferol sydd wedi’u llywio gan ddata ac enghreifftiau o’r byd go iawn, sy’n ei wneud yn berthnasol iawn i ymarferwyr. Mae’n waith ffantastig.
Aaron Wilson:
Helo, a chroeso i bennod arall o Inside HMCTS gyda fi, Aaron Wilson, o’r tîm cyfathrebiadau. Heddiw, byddwn yn siarad am ddigwyddiad diweddar yr OECD - sef cyfarfod o gwmpas y bwrdd yng Nghanada, bu i fy nghydweithiwr, Luc Altmann, ei fynychu i drafod ein gwaith hanfodol yn ymwneud galluogi a gwella mynediad at gyfiawnder i bawb. Felly, byddwn yn cael sgwrs gyda Luc wedi iddo ddychwelyd o’r digwyddiad ychydig yn hwyrach ymlaen yn y podlediad. Ond cyn iddo deithio yna, mi wnes i siarad gydag ef i ganfod mwy am ei amcanion ar gyfer y daith, a phwysigrwydd y drafodaeth ryngwladol am fynediad at gyfiawnder.
Felly, Luc, dyweda ychydig am dy rôl yn GLlTEF yn gyntaf. Beth yw’r rôl? Beth wyt ti’n ei wneud a fedri di ddweud rhywfaint am y digwyddiad hwn fyddi di’n ei fynychu?
Luc Altmann:
Luc Altmann ydw i, a fi yw’r Pennaeth Mewnwelediad yn GLlTEF. Mae hynny’n golygu bod fy nhîm yn darparu tystiolaeth i’r adran i gyfarwyddo ei broses gwneud penderfyniadau. Dw i’n mynd i fod yn Ottawa yng Nghyfarfod o Gwmpas y Bwrdd Byd-Eang yr OECD ar Fynediad at Gyfiawnder, a byddaf yn cyflwyno papur rydym yn cyhoeddi ar y cyd â’r OECD. Os nad ydych yn gyfarwydd â’r sefydliad hwn – mae’n grŵp o 38 o wledydd sy’n hyrwyddo polisïau gwell i’r gwledydd sy’n aelodau eu mabwysiadu. A bob blwyddyn ers, tua 2016 dw i’n meddwl, maen nhw wedi cynnal cyfarfod o amgylch y bwrdd ar fynediad at gyfiawnder.
Mae’r cyfarfod o gwmpas y bwrdd yn digwydd mewn cynhadledd dros 2 ddiwrnod, gyda chyflwyniadau, trafodaethau, gweithdai a phopeth sy’n ymwneud â chyfiawnder - a’r cwbl wedi’i arwain gan arbenigwyr yn y maes. Eleni, pwnc y cyfarfod o gwmpas y bwrdd yw cyfiawnder sy’n canolbwyntio ar bobl, neu’r hyn rydym yn ei alw yn GLlTEF fel cyfiawnder sy’n canolbwyntio ar ddefnyddwyr. Mae’n rhywbeth rydym yn gwybod llawer amdano yn GLlTEF, oherwydd mae dull sy’n canolbwyntio ar ddefnyddwyr wedi bod yn rhan bwysig o raglen ddiwygio GLlTEF. A, gwyddoch chi, dyna yw sail a hanfod y gwaith rydym yn eu gwneud yn y tîm mewnwelediad i ddefnyddwyr.
Aaron Wilson:
A beth am y papur rwyt ti am gyflwyno yn y cyfarfod o gwmpas y bwrdd? Am beth mae hwnnw’n sôn amdano?
Luc Altmann:
Mae’r papur rwy’n ei gyflwyno yn ganllaw ymarferol ar sut i fesur a gwella mynediad at gyfiawnder mewn gwasanaethau llys. Mae’n seiliedig ar y gwaith bu inni ei gyhoeddi yn yr hydref 2023 i asesu mynediad at gyfiawnder yn ein gwasanaethau, ac rydym am gyhoeddi mwy yn yr hydref eleni. Mae’n debyg mai hwn yw un o’r rhaglenni gwaith mwyaf rydym erioed wedi cael yn y tîm mewnwelediad. Rydym wedi bod yn gweithio arno ers sawl blwyddyn nawr.
A gan bod yr OECD wedi cydnabod a gwneud sylwadau arno, mae wir yn ddarn o waith arloesol sy’n arwain y byd, oherwydd ni yw’r unig bobl ar hyn o bryd sy’n mesur ac yn gwella mynediad at gyfiawnder yn ein gwasanaethau llys yn y ffordd hon. Mae’r gwaith rydym wedi’i wneud wedi asesu mynediad at gyfiawnder mewn 5 gwasanaeth, gan gynnwys ysgariadau, hawliadau am arian yn y llys sifil ar-lein, a’r tribiwnlys mewnfudo.
Aaron Wilson:
Ydych yn gweld unrhyw dystiolaeth neu effeithiau positif o’r gwaith hwn y gallwch eu hesbonio i bawb sy’n gwrando?
Luc Altmann:
Mae gennym dystiolaeth nawr o lle rydym wir wedi gwella mynediad at gyfiawnder yn y gwasanaethau. Felly mae wir yn rywbeth pwysig iawn.
Mae’n ymdrech tîm go iawn, ac mae wedi bod yn fenter ar y cyd rhwng y gwahanol broffesiynau dadansoddol yn y llywodraeth, ond yn benodol y proffesiwn ymchwil cymdeithasol yn y llywodraeth, yr wyf i a’r rhan fwyaf o’r tîm yn rhan ohono, ynghyd â gwasanaethau ymchwil gweithredol.
Aaron Wilson:
Rwy’n gwybod eich bod wedi amlinellu sawl pwynt amdano, ond pam ei fod yn bwysig i gael pawb gyda’i gilydd yn yr un ystafell a chael y sgyrsiau hyn?
Luc Altmann:
Mae’n bwysig iawn dod â safbwyntiau gwledydd gwahanol ar sut i gyflawni polisïau cyfiawnder byd-eang at ei gilydd. A pha waith ydych chi a’ch tîm wedi gwneud hyd yma yn ymwneud â hyn? Rydym[KS3] wedi mabwysiadau dull sy’n arwain y byd tuag at ddiwygio’r llysoedd, ac mae ein defnydd o dystiolaeth ac ein dull sy’n canolbwyntio ar ddefnyddwyr yn arloesol iawn, ac maen nhw eisiau dod â’r arbenigedd hwnnw gennym ni yn y DU, ond hefyd gwrando ar safbwyntiau gan y gwledydd eraill i gyd hefyd.
Mae yna waith gwych yn digwydd yng Nghanada ac Awstralia a ledled Ewrop, ac mae dod ag arbenigwyr fel hyn at ei gilydd mewn un lle yn gyfle i rannu syniad yn y bôn.
Aaron Wilson:
Yn amlwg mae’n golygu teithio dramor i ti. Beth ydych yn edrych ymlaen iddo fwyaf am y math hwn o gyfarfod gyda phartneriaid cyfiawnder eraill dramor?
Luc Altmann:
Rwy’n teimlo bod yna ddau beth rwyf wir yn edrych ymlaen iddo yn y cyfarfod o gwmpas y bwrdd. Un yw clywed beth mae gwledydd eraill yn ei wneud ac o bosib dod â syniadau yn ôl gyda fi. Syniadau o ran data mae’r gwledydd eraill yn ei gasglu a sut maen nhw’n defnyddio’r data hynny i wella eu gwasanaethau a sicrhau bod eu gwasanaethau yn canolbwyntio fwy ar ddefnyddwyr. Ond, hefyd, rwy’n teimlo ein bod wedi gwneud gwaith anhygoel yn y maes hwn, a dyma pam rydym yn cyhoeddi’r papur polisi hwn gyda’r OECD. Ac rwy’n falch iawn o hynny ac yn falch o gyfraniad y tîm i hynny, ac rwy’n awyddus iawn i rannu hynny gyda gwledydd eraill.
Nod y papur, y rheswm rydym yn ei gyhoeddi gyda’r OECD, yw oherwydd bod yr OECD yn credu bod y gwaith rydym wedi’i wneud ac y methodoleg sydd gennym i asesu a gwella mynediad at gyfiawnder yn rhywbeth gall gwledydd eraill ei ddefnyddio a’i addasu. Ac os bydd gwledydd eraill yn gallu ei gymryd a’i ddefnyddio yn eu gwasanaethau nhw, rwy’n meddwl bydd hynny, wyddoch chi, yn lwyddiant mawr iawn i ni a bydd yn wych ar y llwyfan ryngwladol.
Aaron Wilson:
Mae’n swnio fel cyfle diddorol iawn i siarad ac i ddysgu gwahanol bethau, ond rwy’n meddwl un peth efallai bydd ein defnyddwyr yn meddwl amdano yw, beth mae hyn yn ei olygu i fi a sut bydd hyn yn fuddiol i ni? A fedri di siarad ychydig am beth fydd hyn yn ei olygu ar gyfer mynediad at gyfiawnder a defnyddwyr yn dod i gyswllt â’n system llysoedd a thribiwnlysoedd?
Luc Altmann:
Yr hyn mae’r asesiad mynediad at gyfiawnder yn ei olygu i ddefnyddwyr sy’n dod i mewn i wasanaethau’r llysoedd yw, ein bod yn gallu adnabod rhai o’r rhwystrau y gallant fod yn wynebu wrth geisio cael mynediad at gyfiawnder trwy wasanaethau’r llysoedd. Trwy fesur y rhwystrau hynny a’u deall, gallwn helpu i’w lleihau a’u dileu’n gyfan gwbl fel bod defnyddwyr yn gallu dod i’n gwasanaethau llys a chael y mynediad at gyfiawnder maen nhw ei angen fel bod ein gwasanaethau yn hawdd i’w deall, ac yn hawdd i’w defnyddio. Sicrhau bod ein system llysoedd, ar-lein ac yn y gofod ffisegol, yn hawdd i’w llywio a bod pobl yn cael y canlyniad maen nhw’n ei haeddu.
Aaron Wilson:
Felly, rydych wedi bod yn mynychu’r cyfarfod o gwmpas y bwrdd ers sawl blwyddyn bellach. Pa fath o newidiadau mewn tueddiadau ydych wedi eu gweld yn ystod eich cyfnod yn mynychu’r cyfarfodydd?
Luc Altmann:
Y her fawr ar gyfer yr holl wledydd yn yr OECD nawr yw’r cyfyngiadau ariannol y mae’r holl lywodraethau a gwledydd yn eu profi. Felly, y ffocws yn aml iawn yw sut gallwch wneud systemau cyfiawnder yn fwy effeithiol ac effeithlon pan maen nhw i gyd yn profi rhai o’r un problemau o ran cynnydd yn yr ôl-groniad o achosion a’r cyfyngiadau ariannol.
Ond mae’r ffocws yn y cyfarfodydd o gwmpas y bwrdd wastad ar gyfiawnder sy’n canolbwyntio ar bobl, ac mae gwrthdaro yn gallu bod rhwng y pwysau ariannol hynny a dylunio a darparu gwasanaethau gan gadw’r defnyddiwr mewn cof.
Aaron Wilson:
Sut wyt ti’n ymdopi â hedfan mewn awyren? Sut wyt ti’n edrych ymlaen i’r siwrne?
Luc Altmann:
Rwy’n edrych mlaen at hedfan yn yr awyren. Mae gen i 3 o blant ifanc - 7, 9 ac 11 mlwydd oed.
Felly, fel arfer pan rwy’n teithio i rywle neu’n mynd ar awyren, rwy’n gofalu am 3 o blant felly dw i’n edrych ymlaen at y tawelwch ar yr awyren. Nid ydw i wedi bod i Ganada erioed, felly dw i’n edrych ymlaen at fynd i Ganada yn yr hydref a chymryd o i gyd i mewn, a phrofi diwylliant Canada. Dw i ond yna am 3 diwrnod, ond mae Ottawa i fod yn ddinas wych. Felly, ie, dw i wir yn edrych ymlaen at hynny.
Aaron Wilson:
Rwy’n meddwl byddaf yn cael cyfle i ddal i fyny gyda ti pan fyddet yn dod yn ôl o’r gynhadledd hefyd. Felly rwy’n edrych ymlaen i glywed mwy am yr hyn wnes ti ddysgu a sut aeth y gynhadledd.
Luc Altmann:
Ie. Wel, rwy’n edrych ymlaen at ddod yn ôl a rhannu’r hanes gyda ti.
Aaron Wilson:
Wel, dyna oedd Luc cyn teithio i Ganada, ac mae’n bleser mawr gennyf ddweud ei fod bellach wedi dychwelyd yn ddiogel i’r DU ac mae wedi dod i ddweud mwy wrthym am y digwyddiad o gwmpas y bwrdd rhyngwladol. Ond cyn i ni ddal i fyny gyda Luc, dyma nodyn atgoffa bach - os ydych yn mwynhau’r podlediad hwn, gallwch ddod o hyd i fwy o gynnwys ar dudalennau ein blog Inside HMCTS a gallwch hefyd gael yr hysbysiadau diweddaraf trwy ddilyn ni ar y cyfryngau cymdeithasol ar X, Facebook, LinkedIn, WhatsApp a YouTube. Felly yn ôl i ti Luc, i ddweud wrthym sut aeth y gynhadledd a beth oedd y prif bethau a ddysgwyd.
Luc Altmann:
Iawn, diolch. Ie. Mi aeth o’n dda iawn, fel y disgwyl. Felly aethon ni allan i lansio ein cyhoeddiad ar fesur a gwella mynediad at gyfiawnder mewn gwasanaethau llys, ac mi aeth hynny’n berffaith. Fel cafodd ei lansio, ei gyhoeddi, ac roedd yna gyfle i’w gyflwyno i’r OECD.
Wnes i roi cyflwyniad am 10 munud, a gafodd ei dderbyn yn dda iawn, ac roedd yna lawer o gwestiynau a thrafod ar ôl y cyflwyniad. Y gobaith yw, o ganlyniad i’w gyhoeddi, bydd gwledydd eraill yn ei fabwysiadu ac yn ei ddefnyddio yn eu gwasanaethau llysoedd hefyd.
Felly roedd yna ddiddordeb gan nifer o wledydd - Yr Iseldiroedd, Chile, Thailand, Unol Daleithiau America, ynghyd â diddordeb gan Fanc y Byd a Phrosiect Cyfiawnder y Byd. Felly pethau cadarnhaol iawn. Ac ie, gobeithio mai rhai o’r camau nesaf fydd gweithio gyda’r gwledydd hynny a thrwy’r OECD, i’w helpu i addasu’r broses ar gyfer mesur mynediad at gyfiawnder.
Aaron Wilson:
Hyfryd. Roedd hi’n daith da felly. Ddaru ni siarad yn flaenorol, cyn i ti deithio i Ganada, ac mi wnes ti sôn am amcanion y digwyddiadau OECD yw helpu gwahanol wledydd i weithio gyda’i gilydd i gyflawni polisïau gwell. Ydych chi’n meddwl bod y sgyrsiau rydych chi wedi’u cael gyda chydweithwyr o wledydd eraill wedi cyfrannu at hynny a darparu dulliau gwell i gyfiawnder ledled y byd?
Luc Altmann:
Ydw, dw i’n meddwl. Dw i’n meddwl bod y papur hwn am fod yn gam mawr i helpu rhai o’r gwledydd hynny i asesu a gwella mynediad at gyfiawnder yn eu gwasanaethau llys. Maen nhw wir efo diddordeb yn y mathau o fethodolegau rydym yn eu defnyddio, ac mae ganddyn nhw ddiddordeb mewn mabwysiadu’r dulliau at ddibenion ei hunain. Ac mae rhai o’r sefydliadau fel Banc y Byd a Phrosiect Cyfiawnder y Byd gyda diddordeb mawr yn y math o fesurau rydym yn eu defnyddio. Felly, gallant eu hailddefnyddio a defnyddio’r mesurau hynny gyda gwledydd eraill ac fel rhan o’u gwaith a’u cenadaethau gyda gwledydd eraill ledled y byd.
Aaron Wilson:
Gwych. Wel, beth am i ni glywed gan aelod o Brosiect Cyfiawnder y Byd, rhywun wnes ti siarad gydag ef yn y digwyddiad.
Dr Alejandro Ponce:
Alejandro Ponce ydw i, prif swyddog ymchwil Prosiect Cyfiawnder y Byd. Yr wythnos diwethaf, cefais gyfle i weld ymdrechion y DU i weithredu argymhelliad mynediad at gyfiawnder yr OECD. Roeddwn wir yn hoffi be welais i.
Mae’n un o’r ymdrechion gwirioneddol gyntaf i wthio i sicrhau gyfiawnder sy’n canolbwyntio ar bobl ac gwneud llysoedd yn fwy cynhwysol. Roedd 3 peth yr oeddwn yn meddwl oedd yn ddiddorol iawn. Yn gyntaf, y fframwaith 7 cam i wella gwasanaethau llys, sy’n adnabod y broblem trwy ddefnyddio data, meddwl am ddatrysiadau a monitro cynnydd. Yn ail, bod y fframwaith yn ddigon hyblyg i weithio gyda systemau cyfreithiol gwahanol. Ac yn drydydd, mae’n annog gwella’n barhaus.
Rhywbeth arall dw i’n ei hoffi am y fenter hon yw nad yw’n ddamcaniaethol yn unig. Mae’n cynnwys strategaethau ymarferol sydd wedi’u llywio gan ddata ac enghreifftiau o’r byd go iawn, sy’n gwneud o’n berthnasol iawn i ymarferwyr. Mae’n waith ffantastig. Llongyfarchiadau.
Aaron Wilson:
Wel, roedd hi’n ddiddorol iawn cael clywed gan Alejandro ac mae’n swnio fel bod cyfraniadau GLlTEF wedi cael eu derbyn mewn ffordd gadarnhaol iawn. A beth oedd rhai o’r pethau wnes ti eu dysgu yn y gynhadledd? A oedd unrhyw beth wnaeth dy synnu neu rywbeth annisgwyl wnes di ei gymryd o’r profiad?
Luc Altmann:
Un o’r pethau rwyf wedi cymryd o Gynhadledd yr OECD ar Fynediad at Gyfiawnder yw cwmpas ac ehangder mynediad at gyfiawnder a’r hyn mae’n ei olygu i wledydd eraill. Mae wastad yn beth da i atgoffa mai dim ond tua 2 - 3% o broblemau cyfreithiol sy’n cyrraedd system y llysoedd.
Felly, mae llawer o’r drafodaeth am fynediad at gyfiawnder yn eistedd y tu allan i system y llysoedd. Felly mae’r gwaith rydym yn ei wneud, y gwaith roeddwn i’n gyflwyno, a’r gwaith rydym yn ei wneud yn GLlTEF ond yn rhan fechan iawn o’r ecosystem mynediad at gyfiawnder y mae’r gwledydd eraill i gyd yn meddwl amdano. A hyd yn oed o ran darparu mynediad at gyfiawnder yn y llysoedd. Roeddwn i’n eistedd wrth ymyl dynes o’r Genhedloedd Unedig, ac roedd hi newydd ddod yn ôl o Fiji a Tonga lle roedd hi’n rhedeg rhaglen i ddarparu mynediad at gyfiawnder i rai o’r ynysoedd yno. Ac roedd hynny’n golygu, yn ymarferol, mynd ar gwch, casglu barnwyr, cyfreithwyr a chlercod llys ac ynadon at ei gilydd a mynd o ynys i ynys a chynnal achosion llys, mewn diwrnod, a chofrestru genedigaethau a phriodasau a marwolaethau, a chynnal yr holl achosion sifil, troseddol ac yna mynd yn ôl ar y gwch i’r ynysoedd eraill. Felly hyd yn oed yng nghyd-destun darparu mynediad at gyfiawnder yn y llysoedd, mewn gwledydd eraill, mae profiadau yn wahanol iawn i rai ni, ac mae wastad yn ein deffro mewn ffordd i’r ffaith ein bod yn edrych ar niche cymharol bychan o ran mynediad at gyfiawnder.
Aaron Wilson:
Ac o ran y mathau o themâu a drafodwyd yn y cyfarfod o gwmpas y bwrdd, dw i’n meddwl wnes ti sôn ychydig am hyn yn flaenorol, beth oedd thema cyffredinol y gynhadledd?
Luc Altmann:
Y thema fawr oedd cyfiawnder sy’n canolbwyntio ar bobl, ynghyd â defnyddio data a mewnwelediad a thystiolaeth. Felly, fel Pennaeth Mewnwelediad i Ddefnyddwyr, rwy’n perthyn i’r ddwy blaid mewn ffordd, ac mae’r rhaglen ddiwygio rydym wedi bod yn rhan ohoni wastad wedi bod yn rhaglen sy’n canolbwyntio ar ddefnyddwyr. Felly rydym wedi dysgu cymaint, ac mae gennym llawer i’w gynnig o ran cyfiawnder sy’n canolbwyntio ar bobl. Ac wrth gwrs, trwy arwain tîm mewnwelediad, mae yna llawer i roi a’i rannu ynghylch y defnydd o ddata a thystiolaeth a mewnwelediad ac rwy’n gobeithio bydd y papur hwn rydym wedi’i gyhoeddi yn trafod y ddau beth hynny mewn ffordd sy’n defnyddio dull sy’n canolbwyntio ar ddefnyddwyr a phobl.
Gan obeithio, bydd yn enghraifft o sut i ddefnyddio mewnwelediad a data i wella mynediad at gyfiawnder.
Aaron Wilson:
Mae’n swnio fel dy fod wedi cael cyfle i wneud llawer yn ystod y cyfarfod o gwmpas y bwrdd ac yn ystod y cyflwyniad. Felly dyma glywed nawr gan un o gynrychiolwyr yr OECD ar y diwrnod, a rannodd ei meddyliau ar sut mae’r rhwydwaith hwn yn gefnogol.
Marianne Piccinin Barbieri:
Marianne Piccinin Barbieri ydw i, dadansoddwr polisi yn OECD. Gyda’r papur hwn, rydym yn gobeithio cefnogi gwneuthurwyr polisïau ledled y byd i fesur mynediad at gyfiawnder a gwasanaethau llys, a’i deilwra i gyd-destun penodol nhw.
Mae’n darparu arweiniad ymarferol ac enghreifftiau o arferion da ar gyfer defnyddio data i sicrhau mynediad at gyfiawnder i bawb. Mae wedi’i seilio yn null yr OECD o gyfiawnder sy’n canolbwyntio ar bobl. Mae’r papur hwn yn rhan o set o adnoddau mae’r OECD wedi bod yn datblygu i helpu gwledydd i roi argymhelliad yr OECD ar fynediad at gyfiawnder a chyfiawnder sy’n canolbwyntio ar bobl ar waith.
Aaron Wilson:
Felly yr hyn dw i’n ei ddeall o hyn yw pwysigrwydd profiad defnyddwyr llys, yn enwedig o fewn y system gyfiawnder, a sut gallwn wella mynediad at gyfiawnder i bobl leded y DU. Ydy hyn yn ddull anarferol o gymharu â gwledydd eraill? Maen nhw i gyd yn ceisio gwella mynediad at gyfiawnder ydyn? Pam y mae’n beth pwysig iawn i’w ystyried?
Luc Altmann:
Wrth gwrs, mae pob gwlad yn ceisio gwella mynediad at gyfiawnder. Rwy’n meddwl bod y dull, un o’r dulliau rydym wedi rhoi ar waith trwy’r gwaith rydym wedi’i gyhoeddi, yn ffordd fwy strwythuredig a mwy ffurfiol o gael mesuriad ac yn gwneud gwelliannau yn seiliedig ar y data. A rhaid cael y data iawn i allu gwneud hynny. Medd ar strategaeth ddata sy’n eich galluogi i gasglu’r wybodaeth sydd ei hangen i gynnal yr asesiad hwnnw a gwneud y gwelliannau hynny. Dyna’n sicr beth mae gwledydd eraill eisiau gwneud, ac maen nhw ar ei hôl hi weithiau o ran ei siwrne diwygio i drawsnewid eu data mewn ffordd, a thrawsnewid eu gwasanaethau. Felly mae hynny’n gyfle da iddynt glywed am beth rydym ni’n ei wneud.
Aaron Wilson:
Ac rwy’n cael yr argraff eich bod wedi gadael y cyfarfod o gwmpas y bwrdd yn teimlo’n eithaf positif. Ond beth yw’r camau nesaf i chi a’ch tîm ac i GLlTEF, a lle rydym yn mynd nesaf?
Luc Altmann: Felly’r camau nesaf o ran y math o waith y mae’r OECD am eu cymryd yw, gobeithio, ceisio cael rhai o’r gwledydd eraill i fabwysiadu ein polisïau. Ac mae yna nifer o wledydd, Yr Iseldiroedd a Chile, Thailand a’r Unol Daleithiau, sydd â diddordeb mewn gwneud hynny. Felly byddwn yn ceisio gweithio gyda nhw, a byddant yn gweithio gyda’r OECD hefyd i fabwysiadu’r broses honno.
Aaron Wilson:
Ac yn sôn am Chile, rwy’n meddwl gwnaethoch chi siarad gyda rhywfaint o gynrychiolwyr o Chile ar y diwrnod, a gallwn glywed gan un ohonynt rŵan a beth oedd ganddynt i ddweud am ein gwaith.
Ariel De la Maza:
Enw fi yw Ariel de la Maza. Fi yw Pennaeth Materion a Chydweithio Rhyngwladol o’r Weinyddiaeth Gyfiawnder a Hawliau Dynol yn Chile, ac rwyf yma gyda Luc Altmann. Rydym newydd fod yn dyst i’w waith, ac mae gennym ddiddordeb mawr yn y prosiect o fesur a gwella mynediad at gyfiawnder mewn gwasanaethau llys.
Rydym ni yn Chile, wedi sicrhau bod y farnwriaeth yn chwarae rhan ganolog wrth fynd i’r afael â’r broblem o fynediad at gyfiawnder, ac mae’r adnodd rydych wedi’i ddatblygu ar gyfer mesur, y problemau a’r bylchau o ran mynediad at gyfiawnder a cheisio mynd i’r afael â nhw. Mae’n ddiddorol iawn i ni, ac mae’n adnodd y mae gennym ddiddordeb mawr mewn ei roi ar waith yn Chile.
Aaron Wilson:
Myfyrdod craff iawn arall. Ac rwy’n gwybod ein bod wedi siarad rhywfaint am hyn o’r blaen ac wedi siarad am y ffaith dy fod yn edrych ymlaen at fynd i Ganada, ond sut oedd o? Sut oedd y daith yn yr awyren a sut oedd Ottawa yn gyffredinol? A wnes ti wneud unrhyw beth arall yno?
Luc Altmann:
Roedd Ottawa yn wych. Roedd hi’n daith cyflym. Roeddwn i ond yna am 3 noson, felly mae’n bell i deithio am gyfnod byr iawn. Ond mae Ottawa yn ddinas hardd. Yn amlwg, Ottawa yw’r brifddinas weinyddol, felly mae’r holl adeiladau llywodraeth yno, a oedd yn hyfryd, a ddaru ni edrych o gwmpas yr adeiladau. Ac yna ar y noson olaf, cefais gyfle i fynd i gêm hoci iâ a gweld yr Ottawa Senators yn ennill yn erbyn y Florida Panthers.
Dyna oedd diwrnod cyntaf y tymor chwarae. Felly roedd hynny’n uchafbwynt diwylliannol a chefais gyfle i gyfarfod pobl Canadaidd go iawn. Felly, ie, digon o hwyl.
Aaron Wilson:
Wel, Luc, diolch yn fawr am roi o dy amser i ddod ar y podlediad i siarad am y gwaith pwysig hwn ac mae’n swnio i mi ei fod wedi bod yn brofiad gwerthfawr iawn i ti ac i’r sefydliad.
Os hoffech ganfod mwy am ein gwaith yn ymwneud â’r mater hwn neu os ydych eisiau canfod mwy am gyfiawnder yn gyffredinol, gallwch ymweld â’n blog trwy chwilio am Inside HMCTS yn eich porwr. Byddwch hefyd yn gallu dod o hyd i benodau blaenorol ein podlediad yma, neu gallwch hefyd chwilio am GLlTEF ac ymweld â’n tudalennau ar GOV.UK.
Felly diolch i bawb am wrando ar y bennod hon, a byddwn yn dychwelyd gyda phennod arall yn fuan, lle byddwn yn edrych yn ôl ar 2024 a’i hadolygu, felly tan hynny, cymerwch ofal.
