https://insidehmcts.blog.gov.uk/knives-down-inside-the-community-fight-against-knife-crime-part-2-podcast-transcript/
Knives Down: Inside the community fight against knife crime (Part 2) - podcast transcript
Aaron Wilson:
Welcome back to the Inside HMCTS podcast with me, Aaron Wilson:, from the communications team. We promised you last week that we'd bring you the follow-up in the second part to our anti knife crime event podcast, which took place at Westminster Magistrates Court. And I'm delighted to say we're rejoined by Ian, who was describing the event and putting it together previously. So, Ian, we're back together now after the event took place, and we're going to hear from some of the amazing speakers from throughout the day in a moment. But firstly, how did it go from your perspective?
Ian Rawlins:
Well, I think judging by the emails I've received, that it was well received. I think that some people were pleasantly surprised with the variation of guest speakers that we had and the inspirations that were coming from those speakers. Some people were asking, when's the next one?
Aaron Wilson:
And funnily enough, that was actually going to be one of my next questions. So, do you think you'll try and hold another one of these events or hold something similar to this in the future?
Ian Rawlins:
Yeah. So, again, from the offset, I've always maintained that, you know, this is just a small stepping stone, really. Think of how many London boroughs there are, and we've just touched on 2 boroughs, one school from each borough. So, and if we're trying to get a message out there about the dangers of knives then we need to hit more boroughs and more schools. So, the idea is to do just that, to send the message once more.
So certainly from, the outside agencies and Kayne Ramsey's perspective, they're more than happy to get involved again, And mock trials as well. So, yeah, so let's go.
Aaron Wilson:
Fullsteam ahead then. Did you get any feedback from the students or the teachers that were there on the day? And how did they find the event as well?
Ian Rawlins:
Teddy Burton, one of their heads from Winchmore, he came up to me and said, Ian, this is brilliant. This is really good. I'm really enjoying myself. I didn't know it was going to be this good.
I'm really happy about it. I'm mad about it, he said. And that's the teacher. And it was good to see when Steel Warriors were doing their calisthenics with the bars that one of the teachers were getting involved in the midst of things. She was putting the kids to shame with how many dips she could do.
And she actually emailed me when she got home to say what a brilliant day she had, and the kids were buzzing on the train going home.
Aaron Wilson:
So, we're going to hear from the Steel Warriors very shortly with their thoughts on the day as well. But let's start at the beginning of the criminal justice process, so the point of arrest, which sits with the police. Who was the police rep on the day?
Ian Rawlins:
I spoke, with Detective Superintendent, Saj Hussain, from the Met Police.
He came up to me near the end to say, Ian, brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. What a great day. And let me know when you do more because we want to get involved. The capture point for them was when they played the body worn for the street chase where the motorcycle officer gave chase for the suspect on foot.
And when he finally caught him, and he had his own the machete tucked down his pants. So that was a good catch for them because it just came about through a failing to stop on the mo-ped. So, it was good for the kids to see that firsthand, you know. It doesn't just happen in films. There was a real-life body worn footage of a chase happening on the streets of London.
So that that was good. I looked at the kids' faces there. They were just totally absorbed.
Aaron Wilson:
Fantastic. Well, let's hear from Saj Hussain with his thoughts on the day now.
Saj Hussain:
I'm Saj Hussain, the Detective Superintendent from Metropolitan Police, and I am currently the lead responsible officer for robbery, knife crime, and open space violence for the Metropolitan Police, which basically means I, alongside my boss who's commander Suet, set the strategic and tactical direction when it comes to knife crime policy, robbery, and some of the violence.
Aaron Wilson:
And can you tell us a little bit more about the role of the Met Police when it comes to the criminal justice process with particular regards to knife crime?
Saj Hussain:
Yeah. So, I think obviously we work across the core police doctrine which is prevention and detection of crime.
Obviously, saving life and limb and protecting the King's peace. But in reality, when it comes to knife crime, I think policing is one part of the puzzle. We clearly have a role in terms of enforcement, but we also have a role in trying to work with the communities that we serve to try to prevent and detect knife crime, and then work with the various charities and community organisations to try to intervene at a very early stage because knife crime, by the time it gets to us unfortunately sometimes it's too late. So, at that very early stage there's a lot of initiatives that are happening within the local community with our local officers. And I think, this year we've introduced community crime fighting plans, part of the commissioner's plan around the new Met for London, which is in relation to working with our communities in areas of violence, in areas of knife crime.
Aaron Wilson:
And why is today's event so important in relation to all of this?
Saj Hussain:
So, I think for us, it's really important that people understand that knife crime starts at a very young age. And for us to have an opportunity to educate, children about the dangers of knife crime. We know that knife crime is devastating, not just to the individuals, the families, but also the communities, people serve. And I think earlier in the session today, we someone mentioned that knife crime doesn't just affect the individual either that's been stabbed or injured. It affects the whole family, and it affects the community that they live in.
So, for us to be here, to have an opportunity to speak to individuals and educate them, we really feel that that allows us an opportunity to work around preventing knife crime to even happen in the first place.
Aaron Wilson:
So, after an arrest, it's over to the Crown Prosecution Service or the CPS as they're perhaps better known, which decides whether to prosecute the case and prepares it for court. Who do we have from the CPS there as a rep on the day?
Ian Rawlins:
So, you had Toks that gave the talk that basically said, we don't like knives, and we don't like you if you carry knives, and said as to why. He said as well, brilliant day, Ian.
Really enjoyed it. He came with one of his other main managers, Mike Mann. I saw him yesterday, actually, and he said, we really enjoyed it, Ian. Thanks for inviting us. It was brilliant.
Great turnout, and we thoroughly enjoyed it.
Aaron Wilson:
So next, we're going to hear from Fadi Daoud, a defense solicitor, and the role that he plays, in defending an accused person once a prosecution has been brought to court.
Fadi Daoud:
I'm Fadi Daoud. I'm a partner at Lawrence and Co. Solicitors.
I am past president of the LCCSA, until 4th November. And I am a defence solicitor.
Aaron Wilson:
And it can you tell us a little bit about the role of the defense solicitor in criminal case and knife crime case?
Fadi Daoud:
Usually, we get involved at the sometimes, pre interview, but usually at the police station stage when a client is arrested. And we would attend the police station, and we would normally advise the client at the police station.
And thereafter, we would then be involved with, advising clients to the magistrates’ court. For example, somebody like me, I've got higher rights, so then I would carry on usually until we get to the Crown Court as well.
Aaron Wilson:
And why do you think today's event is so important, for educating young people about the dangers of knife crime?
Fadi Daoud:
It's because it touches so many people individually, while the stats show that we're a lot safer than we ever have been because violent crime has been reducing over the years. And that's a great thing.
Unfortunately, when it touches an individual, it touches that individual and their family, and the repercussions that that has on them and their family. And it seems to be targeting particular age groups and particular minorities, and it's affecting those communities, I think, quite heavily and disproportionately. And I think it's something that we as those involved in the criminal justice system, have to communicate that that while statistically we're a lot safer, individually, when it does touch you or your family, it has a massive impact. And that's because of a number of things.
1, you can lose your life, 2, you can lose your liberty and 3, of course, you lose an individual from your family. But also, it means that you will not have the same job opportunities, you're likely to be in custody now than you ever were before, and it is likely to have an impact on whether or not you would not be permitted to travel outside the UK, because there are some restrictions that other countries impose upon those who have got these sorts of convictions.
Aaron Wilson:
And lastly, any particular highlights that have piqued your interest throughout the day?
Fadi Daoud:
It's been really good.
The great thing is, I'm hoping the students will see the different roles that we all have. And the great thing is that the prosecutors are making it clear that they're not there to prosecute. They're there to prosecute fairly. As a defense lawyer, of course, my job is to defend very robustly.
And the judge's role was explained by the DCM, the deputy chief magistrate. And the great thing is he explained that they're not there to do the government's bidding, for example. They're there to make decisions, and those decisions are also made as fairly as possible, because they are human beings. And it is a human interaction, and we're all involved in this sort of process that's very important to protect society, but it's also to assist the individuals as well.
Aaron Wilson:
So, we've already heard from some senior representatives involved in the criminal justice process, but we also had some practical sessions take place on the day too. So next up is Katie from emergency first aid charity Street Doctors. Over to Katie for more.
Katie Murray:
Yeah. So, my name's Katie.
I work for Street Doctors, which is a charity which works to empower young people by teaching them what to do in an emergency first aid situation. So, we teach people what to do when somebody's bleeding and also what to do when someone's knocked out so that young people can go out in their community and help either a stranger, themselves, or a friend if they so want to.
Aaron Wilson:
And what have you been doing with the students today?
Katie Murray:
So, I've been teaching them a little snapshot of some of the sessions. So, we went over the key steps of what to do when someone's bleeding.
So, we talked about, calling the ambulance, checking for your own safety, and also the importance of applying pressure. And we all practice doing a little demonstration of that. So, we taught them how to elevate their legs so that the blood can go to their important organs, which are their heart, brain, and lungs. And then we had a little bit of time at the end just to practice some CPR as well. So, we have the dummies here so that everyone could have a little bit of hands-on experience and, yeah, think about how they could support if they wanted to.
Aaron Wilson:
And why do you think today is such an important event for educating and supporting the fight against knife crime?
Katie Murray:
I think that any event which aims to inform and educate and share skills about the situation and to help young people feel like they have knowledge, and they can make decisions is a great event. And it's been a real pleasure to be part of it and hopefully teach them something today. And I hope all of the young people really enjoyed it as well. It's been a really lovely day.
Aaron Wilson:
So, in addition to Katie, we also had representatives from the charity Steel Warriors, which I know you've referenced already. But what did they make of the day?
Ian Rawlins:
Christian from Steel Warriors, well he was buzzing all the way through himself. That was neat. He loved it himself.
And he said, yeah. This is brilliant. This is absolutely brilliant. This is just the right events that that we want, you know, to the right people. So, and he was busy distributing his business cards.
So, he was more than happy. Yeah. He was more than happy. And he said, you know, just let him know when the next one is.
Aaron Wilson:
Brilliant, well, let's hear what Christian and his team had to say.
Christian d’Ippolito:
Hi. So, my name's Christian d’Ippolito, and I'm part of the team that runs Steel Warriors, an anti-knife crime charity based here in London. We melt confiscated knives, and we turn them into outdoor street gyms. And we subsequently teach self-development through the medium of calisthenics.
Aaron Wilson:
And what have you and your team been doing today with the children from Winchmore Hill and Chadwell Heath?
Christian d’Ippolito:
I think today was really about highlighting our existence in an attempt to attract more young people to engage with what we're doing. You know, I think we run a very privilege free, environment and space. Some consider it to be an entry point into fitness. And when you consider that we're in the midst of a public health crisis, a cost-of-living crisis, I think having access to free fitness or options that encourage that is more important than ever before.
And so really today was about highlighting that, but also really the message of transformation, which underpins everything that we do. You know, we transform a knife into a pull up bar, a restless mind into a focused one, and a weak body into a strong one. And so, these are all valuable tools and good insight for a young person to be made aware of, particularly when you consider that there are no associated costs.
Aaron Wilson:
And events like today, why are they so important, do you think?
Christian d’Ippolito:
I think the message needs to be loud and clear that alternative paths are possible, and the severity of knife crime, is really I mean, it's a critical level now, isn't it?
In the capital and across the country. So really, I think having something like this send the message home in a very clear way, taking a young person on the journey that they would probably go through should they be caught up on the wrong side of the law is a very good way of illustrating, the problem and the challenges and, you know, what can ultimately happen. But for me, and this is really what I've been building my life around, it's also about showcasing an alternative path. And there are many, but as I say, if you consider that we serve as an entry point, then that's really all that matters to get someone in through our program to then hopefully achieve something with their lives.
Demi Alvanis:
My name is Demi, and I'm a coordinator at Steel Warriors.
So, I coordinate our programs that we run. So that includes a school program, includes our community classes, includes an intervention program, and we have an evolving HMP program. So yeah. I'm just here to share my experiences in the charity as well as an alternative pathway for young people to follow away from crime on the right side of the law. Because we search for methods of prevention and deterrence to life crime and other types of crime in London.
And for us, I think we found an effective solution, to be honest, to say the least. Like, calisthenics has presented itself as a sport that captivates a young person because it involves focusing on oneself, on their on their mental health, on their physical body. And ultimately, what we're looking to do is build lives with steel instead of destroying them.
Colin Dappah:
Colin Dappah. I work for Steel Warriors.
I'm a coach at Steel Warriors. So, what that means is, I teach people calisthenics, different progressions on how to learn skill.
Aaron Wilson:
And why do you think today's event is so important in in the work to tackle knife crime across London?
Colin Dappah:
It is really important. Getting young people together.
I think, we've seen that the target group of people that are getting involved in life crime is, young 15, 16-year-old, males. They're predominantly, at risk of being a victim of life crime and also, being a crime. So, I think it's very important that we're here today.
Aaron Wilson:
And what have you been doing here with the students today?
Colin Dappah:
So, we've been demonstrating, a few calisthenics moves and just teaching them.
And, yeah, I think main thing is there is a different path. You know? You don't have to be out on the street corners. We have a community there willing, ready to accept you if you choose to come to us.
Aaron Wilson:
So, we've heard from the people who were speaking in the morning during the event.
What happened after lunch?
Ian Rawlins:
And then we had Ben Kinsella Trust in the afternoon who, again, it was Tom Jukes who came for them. And, again, he was happy with everything. He said, this is this is really good here. Thanks for inviting us.
And then you had the sheriff, who rode into town without a horse and without a badge, but she did have some sort of gold, didn't she? But I think she captivated the audience as well, than she, about her talk for growing up, which kind of mirrored the deputy chief, Judge Ikram's speech as well about it growing up. But again, you can see the kids were captivated, and she enjoyed it as well. And you had the National Justice Museum who laid on the mock trial, which is when the kids came into their element with their acting skills. And, so, yeah, everyone fully enjoyed it, and everyone is raring to go again.
So, it's good to see.
Aaron Wilson:
And as part of the afternoon session, the students also had the opportunity to hear from the minister of state for courts and legal services, Heidi Alexander, who was really enthusiastic about the day. So, let's hear what the minister had to say.
Heidi Alexander:
Well, I think often when we see courtrooms, it's because it's been dramatized, on television and to give the next generation an opportunity to come into a courtroom and think through the consequences of what happens. Today's event is all about knife crime.
And, you know, I think some of the time, things happen, emotions take hold, and actually, it's really important to underline to the next generation why they shouldn't be carrying a knife and what is going to happen if they do. And so, opening up our courts so that young people can understand what goes on here, I think, is really, really important thing to do.
Aaron Wilson:
And we saw you earlier having a bit of a chat with some of the speakers and some of the students present here. What were you talking about there?
Heidi Alexander:
So, I met with the fantastic guys who turn knives into gym equipment that's available in parks. They were absolutely fantastic. Met with the police, someone that works at the violence reduction unit for the mayor of London and also a defense solicitor. And, obviously, all of those individuals, at some point, are exposed to the horror of knife crime. And I think all of those different people want to see the scourge of knife crime eradicated.
And so, it's really good to see those individuals coming together as a result of the initiative taken by Ian, who's a legal adviser in the magistrates’ court here in Westminster, to actually show youngsters, there's a lot of people out there that are trying to improve things and want to grasp this problem and tackle the problem, but we're going to need to address it as a as a country and as a society. It's not just for individual organisations. We're not going to be able to change things unless everyone works together.
Aaron Wilson:
I think that's a really good example of that sort of cross, criminal justice sector work in and seeing that in action.
Why is that important, and how did that play out during the day?
Ian Rawlins:
It's massively important, to have everyone singing from the same hymn sheet because we're talking about people of our future early, aren't we? We're talking about the kids and youths who are growing up looking at knife crime as an everyday thing and not thinking much about it because it's now slowly and gradually becoming part of culture, which, you know, we need to try our best to try and clamp it now and stamp it out now. So, they realise, no, it's not part of growing up every day, and it should never be part of everyday growing up. And it shouldn't be part of the things you leave your home with along with your mobile phone.
You know? So, it's good when the criminal justice system does things right. It does things right, and it does things good. And we can only do that when everyone comes together, you know, as one. And, you know, events like these try to bring as many agents together as we can.
Aaron Wilson:
So, Ian, it sounds like it was a really fantastic day, full of events raising awareness around what is a very serious issue. But from your perspective, what was your personal highlight of the day?
Ian Rawlins:
For me there were many highlights of the day. Smiling faces is always a good start for me, and I saw so many smiling faces from adults to kids. Inspirational talks.
Although the target audience was the students, I think many adults were inspired by the inspirational talks that occurred on the day as well. And to also see, for them a real line professional footballer who in his twenties, humble guy, grounded. He told them the importance of school. He told them he never missed a day at school. And when you're at school, you think this is too hard.
I don't want to do this. But when you become an adult, you realize just how good a life things were at school, and the importance of school. And I was listening to him talking to the students about that as well, and you could see them all absorbed into it. What they also got out of that, of course, was that if you are determined enough, you can achieve your goals because they had a real-life professional footballer. So, for me, all of that culminating in Kayne Ramsey right at the end, speaking to them with his inspirational goals.
Aaron Wilson:
Ian, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast for these last two episodes. And thank you also for being the driving force behind such an inspirational event. I'm already looking forward to the next one personally, and obviously, wish you all the best for your future work in this vital area. Thank you as well to all of our listeners for tuning in. You can subscribe to our Inside HMCTS podcast channel wherever you get your podcasts from, or you can catch up with them on our Inside HMCTS blog page, if you prefer to.
So, to round off today's episode, we're going to hear from our chief executive, Nick Goodwin, on his thoughts from the day, and I look forward to you all joining us again next time. So, until then, goodbye.
Nick Goodwin:
Today is a fantastic event. Today is about showing people how the courts work and at the same time, helping them understand how knife crime is not something they should get into, how to avoid it, how to defend themselves, and ultimately, how the justice system deals with people that get involved in that sort of offence.
Aaron Wilson:
And have there been any particular highlights or conversations that you've had today that stand out?
Nick Goodwin:
Yes, I think there've been 2 that really stuck in my mind. Talking to the kids who are here today, who have spent all day learning about the criminal justice system, but seeing them now as they're doing mock trials has been really, really amazing. A lot of talent there, and we want kids like that through our doors to work for us in the courts and tribunals system. That’s been brilliant.
And then there were the guys here that turn weapons into exercise equipment, and they were just massively inspirational. And they're inspirational not just because of what they did, because of how they felt about it, how they felt that actually their job was something that, was really important. That they were able to turn people's lives around.
