https://insidehmcts.blog.gov.uk/vision-to-verdicts-introducing-new-courts-and-tribunals-podcast-transcript/
Vision to verdicts: introducing new courts and tribunals - podcast transcript
Sally: It’s really important that people trust the legal system and having a facility that people can physically get into, as well as one they think is fair and is useful is, you know, really fulfilling.
Aaron: That was Sally there, the architectural designer responsible for designing Blackpool's new courthouse, and we'll hear more from Sally later about this development.
Hi, I'm Aaron Wilson and in today's podcast, we are taking a behind the scenes look at three exciting new property projects.
Did you know that HMCTS is responsible for around 330 court and tribunal buildings across England and Wales and dozens of tribunal buildings in Scotland? They range from listed buildings steeped in history to new builds, providing modern, accessible hearing spaces.
But what goes into building and kitting out a new court or tribunal centre to make sure that it's welcoming and accessible for people who visit or work there?
Let's return to Sally now, who led the reimagining of what justice looks like in Blackpool. Her design for the town's new courthouse will replace an ageing building and become a cornerstone of Blackpool's ongoing regeneration.
So Sally, thank you so much for agreeing to come on to the podcast today. Can I just start by asking you a little bit about your job? What is it and what drew you to your particular career as well?
Sally: So my name is Sally. I originally came over from New Zealand where I also worked in architecture.
And the way I got into architecture originally was that my grandfather was a carpenter and then he was a draughtsman after that, after he injured his back, which quite often happens to carpenters. He inspired me to look into it as a career, really, and also growing up, I was really interested in art and math and science. It's kind of hard to find a balance for something that as a career path meets all of those criterias and the kind of balance of resolving that technical detail.
I think it's not just the detail itself, it's that feeling of bringing design and construction together.
Aaron: How did you feel when you found out you'd won the commission to design Blackpool's new courthouse?
Sally: So we worked really, really hard with Mott McDonald on the bid team and we had lots and lots of meetings and workshops with lots of contributors and it was probably one of the biggest bids I've worked on in a really long time.
And so we were just really thrilled when we found out that we were successful. There's a lot of competition in the architecture industry and you do a lot of work on bids and you you're not always successful. It's also quite rare that MoJ invests in a completely new building and we do lots and lots of retrofits and refurbishments. The last major purpose-built buildings we were involved in - and possibly the last ones that were that were implemented - was Manchester CJC, which was in 2007 and then Salisbury law courts, which was 2010.
Aaron: I think you've mentioned there two different arms of a project that you have. So you've got the building of the new courthouse in this case, or refurbishing what's there already. How much does that differ in the plan you have to put together and how you're going to plan your project?
Sally: Yeah, it's quite interesting how similar the processes start off. We meet with stakeholders to understand at the beginning of a project how they use the current building and then also what they need moving forward. So what's missing?
We then start looking at it almost like a puzzle - building blocks. So that you can work out exactly how the form of the building will work. The difference with a new build is you have a little bit more creativity, whereas you have the constraints of an existing building. A lot of the time, courts are based in civic centres where you can't expand. Often with older buildings, you can't build on top as that’s a more expensive solution, so you're working within the envelope of an existing building.
Aaron: I appreciate that there's probably still quite a long way to go on this project, but so far for you, what's been the most rewarding aspect of working on this project?
Sally: I think it's seeing how important the building is to the local community and that means the people who work in the building, the people who need to use the building, and courts around the country that have been there for a really long time and weren’t always as accessible as they could be, but that focus has really changed in the last 20 or 30 years.
I think it's really great that we're bringing back a vital part of the legal system into Blackpool. It's not often as architects that we get to work on a project that has that level of social impact. Getting the design right and talking to the right people at the beginning, making sure that the building does what it needs to do, helps foster that connection between people and public institutions. It's really important that people trust the legal system and having a facility that people can physically get into and that they think is fair and is useful is, you know, really fulfilling.
Aaron: I think you you've said a few bits there, but what do you hope when the building does open and people who have previously had to go to other sites to have their case heard, what do you want them to think and feel when they walk through the door for the first time?
Sally: I hope that they feel like they're walking into a building that is open and transparent and welcoming.
I hope they see it as a community place. I think people quite often don't think about courts as a community-use space until they desperately need it and and then that makes it quite often a frightening or intimidating process. I think it would be wonderful if when you turned up at Blackpool, or as somebody who's never experienced a court process before, that you feel safe and it's not difficult and there's level access for everybody so they can see what's going on, they can hear what's going on and a new build really gives us an opportunity to do that.
Aaron: If you could describe your involvement in Blackpool in one word, what would it be so far?
Sally: I think it's exciting. It's so rare to get an opportunity to work on a building of this scale for the MoJ, but I’m just looking forward so much to seeing it come to reality.
Aaron: Now let's join my colleague, Melissa, who's been on the ground in London meeting the people responsible for making the city's newest courthouse a reality.
Melissa: Thanks Aaron. I'm here at the heart of the capital, at the new City of London law courts. The construction workers you can hear behind me have been busy creating cells and building the new courtrooms at what will be a flagship courthouse. Right now, it's a bustling building site, but when it opens its doors to the public, it will hear civil and crime cases and it could be destined to tackle the most complicated cases, like fraud. I'm joined on site by a senior project manager, Sophie Nutbeem, whose role it is to oversee the development, providing a link between the construction firm and those staff who will actually use the building.
Hi, Sophie. Thanks for joining me. So the new law courts here on Fleet Street are already looking pretty impressive, but can you tell me what people can expect if they come to visit this court when it's open?
Sophie: Yes, of course. This building is going to be one of the most accessible buildings in the country. Now, that's the whole site, including all courtrooms, will be accessible. And that's for jurors, custodial staff and judiciary, visitors, witnesses, everybody; which is brilliant. And there will also be multiple lifts for all those different users. So even if one lift is broken, as we have in some of our buildings, that won't make a difference at this site. There is also changing places for public use on one of the floors, which is a real positive addition as we don't have that in hardly any of our sites.
Melissa: And what about the custody suite? What if we have any detainees who are wheelchair users, for example, what will their experience be like?
Sophie: Yes. So the custody suite is also accessible and there are specific cells that can accommodate wheelchairs as well as two lifts that will take any users up straight up into the courtrooms.
Melissa: That sounds really positive. It's not just accessible for people coming in using the building, but also for jurors, for judges, for legal professionals and for detainees as well. I think it's safe to say that's not always the case with a lot of our court buildings.
Sophie: No, it isn't. And we've really tried in this building to make it accessible for all users at all times.
Melissa: And can you tell me anything about the sustainability of the building. How environmentally friendly is it going to be?
Sophie: Yeah, so this this is a new build from the ground up and it will be achieving an outstanding BREEAM rating because of that. Now that is an assessment that starts before construction. So it starts as soon as the the the plans are designed for the building and points are given for design and sustainability measures, waste removal and even the type of paint that is used on the site. Things that people will more commonly be familiar with are that the building will have air source heat pumps. It will have solar panels on the roof and will harvest rainwater for toilet flushing.
Melissa: So how do you hope people will feel when they walk into this building for the first time, compared to other court buildings they've visited in the past?
Sophie: So this building when you first enter it, is going to be big, bright and airy with a modern feeling. And as you enter, there will be 3 search channels with bag scanners and that is so that we can efficiently get people into the building during busy periods. It will be easy to navigate around the site but there will be a reception desk on the ground floor should anyone need assistance.
And there are plenty of consultation rooms, ranging in sizes as well as public waiting space on each floor. There is also a prayer and contemplation room with ablution facilities and a separate well-being room as well, both for public use.
Melissa: That sounds really positive. I think that sometimes coming to court can feel quite daunting for people. You know, you could be coming to this building for any number of reasons – a civil dispute or to be a witness or to sit as part of a jury. But do you feel this building will be quite bright and spacious and easy to navigate?
Sophie: Yes, and there will be a mixture of facilities. So there will be small rooms if you need quiet space, there will be variety of public seating around the building. So if you need to be separate from other users of the building, there will be those sorts of facilities for you as well.
Melissa: And for you, obviously you've worked on a lot of projects in your role here in the HMCTS property department, but how has it felt for you personally to work on such a big project like this?
Sophie: So this one has been quite unusual in that we are working with our landlords, who are the City of London Corporation, and they're actually constructing the site for us. It's also an unusual project because the site will house crown, magistrates and civil work all under one roof, which is quite unusual. And this project has also been running since 2018, so it's been going a really, really long time.
And during that time, we've had changes in technology and our technology has moved on, our operating requirements have changed, especially post COVID. So that's all added an extra layer of complexity into the project and we've had to work extra hard with the City of London to ensure all of our requirements are met.
Melissa: So I've come to a different part of the building site now and I'm joined by the City of London Corporation Policy Chairman, Chris Haywood. Thanks for joining me, Chris. Now this development is a real show of partnership; the City of London Corporation is building the new court and the neighbouring headquarters and HMCTS is fitting the court building out.
But this is all part of a bigger development here at Salisbury Square. Can you tell me what it'll be like for people visiting and working in this part of London once it's finished?
Chris: Well it’s going to produce a regeneration of the area. So what we're going to find is that we've not only got a state-of-the-art courts building for fraud and economic crime, we'll have a fantastic new police headquarters and a commercial development as well.
So it's going to be a landmark building in an area of Fleet Street which frankly needed some investment in regeneration. So we're thrilled to be able to do it.
Melissa: And how has it felt for you to be involved in such a large and important development?
Chris: Well, I'm extremely proud. I'm proud of all of the people who've worked on this development. I'm proud of the corporation for funding it, I'm proud of the Capital Buildings Board for all the work they did in pulling it together. I mean, this is again another example of how we're investing in the future of the greatest city in the world and we'll go on doing that with all the other big buildings that we're also building and all the massive offices that have also been created in the square mile.
Melissa: I imagine you're looking forward to 2027 when this is all finally open for the public, and you can see people coming in and and using these buildings for the first time?
Chris: Can't wait. It'll be the end of my five-year tenure as policy chairman. What a way to go out - with a real bang.
Melissa: Definitely. What a great way to go out. Thanks very much for joining me.
Chris: Thank you so much.
Aaron: Thanks, Melissa. The City of London Law Courts will be used for magistrates, crown and civil cases, but my next guest is here to tell us about a project to create a new tribunal building. And that's our deputy director of planning, investment and sustainability, Mark. Thank you so much for joining me.
So we're going to talk a little bit about Newgate Street in London, which we bought in order to turn into a new tribunal centre in the city. Could you tell me a little bit about that project?
Mark: Yeah. So this is really exciting. So, in 22, we bought a building that became available, which is directly next door to the Old Bailey. And it was seen that we had issues with a number of our tribunal facilities within the centre of the city and they needed a huge level of investment because they are tired, they're not fit for purpose and tribunal function was struggling to be delivered from them. So we saw this as an opportunity and purchased 7 Newgate and that building we are converting into a 30-hearing room tribunal centre, which is going to be really exciting and world leading actually. There are 19 formal tribunal hearing rooms, 11 informal and 40 chambers for Tribunal judges. So it really is a tribunal court for the future and a really exciting project.
Aaron: And what sort of cases will they those rooms here?
Mark: The whole array of tribunal functions, so it's from employment tribunal, war pensions, armed forces, compensation chambers, Social Security and child support tribunals.
And what we're doing is exiting Victory House and Fox Court, which were both tired, for want of a better term, and required a huge investment so all of those functions from those buildings will come into Newgate and be able to be delivered far more effectively and efficiently.
Aaron: It sounds like a massive project and it must be more exciting for you to work on. So how has it been like working on this project?
Mark: First of all, a privilege because this is going to be a landmark project once it's complete. So it is fantastic. I think it's one of the largest tribunal centres in Europe once it’s completed, so it’s really exciting.
Aaron: And for people listening to this podcast, who might end up coming to the London Tribunal Centre, what can they expect when they walk through the doors when it opens?
Mark: The foyer and the reception area is quite impressive. It's a large open reception area, so I'm hoping that the experience of everyone will be a bit of a wow as to what can be achieved in the estate. We've got a number of buildings that are of this standard and the level of service that this can deliver, but this will be groundbreaking and probably the cherry on the cake of the estate once it's complete.
Aaron: I'm looking forward to seeing it. One question that we quite often get, particularly in my world on social media, is around accessibility. So how are we ensuring that this building is accessible to everyone that needs to come into the building?
Mark: So we've designed the building to be fully accessible. Because it's a major refurbishment, we're ensuring that we can undertake all of the adaptive work to ensure that the building is fully compliant with building regulations and so on, and we've also worked very closely with user groups to ensure that, whenever possible, we can implement measures for neurodiversity.
Aaron: Perfect. I just wanted to turn away from new buildings for a moment. And can we just talk about work to improve things like leaking roofs or ageing heating in some of the other sites? So obviously the Lord Chancellor recently said that £148 million has been set aside this financial year for repairs and maintenance to court and tribunal buildings and obviously that's a quite a large increase on the previous year. But can you give us some idea of what that money is being spent on?
Mark: Yes indeed. So what I put in place was a prioritisation process to ensure that the money is spent in the best way and we've got some really exciting projects from - they may not sound huge - but you've got a roof replacement which will massively impact on the buildings that we're replacing the roof at and really improving service delivery and our interaction with operations and judiciary has never been so close.
Aaron: I just wanted to chat about some of the projects that I've heard of, because I think you mentioned the roof replacement there. Is that the one at Nottingham Crown Court?
Mark: Yes. There's one at Nottingham, we're just completing a huge one in Harrow, we've got a huge piece of work that we're undertaking in Birmingham as well. So it’s right across the country. We got some very interesting and exciting projects across the piece.
Aaron: Well, it sounds like there's never a dull day for you and your team. Mark, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast and joining me today.
And big thank you as well to all my guests who have joined me today to give us a behind the scenes look at some of the work taking place across the country to improve court and tribunal buildings for everyone.
If you'd like to find out more about these projects, why not read our recent blog by visiting inside hmcts.blog.gov.uk and searching for improving court buildings? That's all we have time for now. Until next time, take care and keep listening.
