Historic Court Buildings: Derby's dungeons and royal visits - podcast transcript

Sian: Did you know that HMCTS is responsible for more than 330 court and tribunal buildings – from modern, purpose-built sites to courthouses with decades, or even centuries of history? I’m Sian and in this Inside HMCTS series of podcasts, we’re taking a look behind the scenes of some of our most historic buildings – the famous cases they’ve heard and how that history is shaping their use today.  

In the first of this four-part series, we’re visiting a court so old that it even has an underground dungeon. 

We’re joining Melissa to find out more. 

Melissa: Thanks, Sian. I'm here outside Derby Justice Centre in Saint Mary's Gate, which is right in the heart of the historic Cathedral Quarter. The Shire Hall, which serves as the main entrance to the court here, was completed in the 1600s. And to put that in context, it was the year before the exiled King Charles II return to claim the throne, and it was a year after Oliver Cromwell's death. I'm going to head inside now to meet senior legal advisor Glyn, who's worked at courts across the country, and he happens to be very knowledgeable about Derby Justice Centre. Let's go inside. 

Melissa: Hi Glyn, thanks for joining me. So what can you tell me about the beautiful Shire Hall building we're standing in?  

Glyn: Well, the Shire Hall was built in 1665. We're now the oldest Magistrates’ Court in the country. And bizarrely it has in-the-ceiling heating, which was clearly never going to work. So you can see the pipes still, but since hot air rises and cold air falls, it clearly was replaced by radiators later on.  

The Shire Hall was also called the Moot Hall at some point. And until the Assembly Rooms were built in Derby, it was the main public entertainment area. So there was dancing at night and court the day. Some people might say entertainment all day, but there we are. 

Melissa: It's a beautiful space for that as well, with the flagstone flooring. And there's this gorgeous balcony up above that. You can sort of imagine musicians up there and people dancing below and it’s quite Bridgeton-esque. It's a beautiful space.  

Glyn: Yeah. It's based on a mediaeval court model. In mediaeval times public buildings had to have multiple functions, so the mediaeval court would have had one Criminal Court, one civil court and a public entertainment area. The only other court I've come across that looks like this was the old Oakham Magistrates Court, which is a tiny version of this with a museum in the public entertainment space and two magistrates’ courts. I remember going in there and the usher, coming out and saying “SHH”, but until the usher came out, I hadn't realised it was a courthouse.  

Melissa: What can you tell me about courtrooms one and two, which I always think wouldn't look out of place in a period drama?  

Glyn: They're both wooden panelled crown courts because this, although the mediaeval model has civil courts, this was always two crown courts. They’re wooden panelled and they have grand jury boxes because the Americans get the grand jury system from us. And we scrapped it because why would you swear jury in to find out if there's enough evidence to swear a jury in? But the grand jury boxes are always on the wall, which is where the phrase handing down the indictment comes from.  

Melissa: All these lovely historic phrases. They're beautiful as well, you can still see them here now. They're almost like large wooden balconies, very high up in the ceiling looking down. And what would you say is the most famous case in history to have been heard here at Derby Justice Centre?  

Glyn: Well, you've got the Pentrich Martyrs, of course, who were brought here and hung drawn and quartered and sentenced to be hung drawn and quartered. The sentence was commuted so they were hung and then dismembered. Which is the major one, but the of course we have the tunnels which lead directly to the Derby Gaol.  

Melissa: Yes, I've heard about the underground dungeon or Oubliette as it's known. I imagine it's quite creepy down there.  

Glyn: It is. And we have the brick hole where prisoners were originally put in with a ladder. So they climbed down the ladder, we took the ladder away. And so before cells were invented, that's where prisoners were kept. 

Melissa: And then they could be brought up from the oubliette into court.  

Glyn: And we still have the old cells downstairs which are no longer used. The modern cell block is ground level. 

Melissa: And the old dungeon, it's still under the building, isn't it? 

Glyn: It is, yes.  

Melissa: Obviously it’s not accessible to the public. And I understand the court is no stranger to royal visits. If we look over there, there's a plaque in the Shire Hall that refers to Prince Charles or obviously King Charles as he is now. What can you tell me about his reason for visiting?  

Glyn: Well, he opened the building in the 1990s and he and he gave a speech in the Shire Hall. And there are members of staff who remember him coming and saying how polite he was.  

Melissa: And I think that was to do with the renovation that had taken place at the court because you've got the Shire Hall and the historic courtrooms one and two, but there's a whole suite around that now of more modern courts, isn't there?  

Glyn: Yeah. The court won an award when it was restored as such. I think we weren't originally wanting to come in here because it was derelict, the two Crown courts in the 70s. And then because the courts were owned by us, they wanted to make use of them. So we then built seven courtrooms around the two wooden courtrooms. And as I say it, it did win an award.  

Melissa: And those are the modern courtrooms that we see and use today. Really interesting. Thanks very much, Glyn. It's a beautiful old building. If you're ever in Derby and you walk down the road here in the Cathedral Quarter at Saint Mary's Gate, I hope you take the opportunity to come inside and have a look. Thanks, Glyn. 

Sian: Thanks for listening to this episode of Inside HMCTS. If you’d like to find out more about the history of Derby Justice Centre, visit gov.uk and search ‘Behind the scenes of the Criminal Justice System in Derby.’ Which historic court would you like to hear about next? Visit the HMCTS LinkedIn page to vote between London’s Royal Courts of Justice, which is one of the largest court complexes in Europe, or Sessions House in Preston, which has hosted some of the most high-profile hearings in recent history.